improving base classes that need it

[gallagher]

and no, not just the monk, there are many base classes that just need a little tweaking to be at least viable without needed multiclassing or multiple and various prc dips.

as far as i see them, the monk, the soulknife, the ranger, and the knight just need a little bit of fixing. they each have something that gives them distinctive flavor. the monk has flurry, speed, slowfalling, and some other things, the ranger has favored enemies, soulknife has a mindblade, and the knight can force others to fight him.

each of these could be used well either in certain situations, or with a bit of upgrading. so what do you see as far as classes like these and what they need?

the monk could use a pounce ability to take advantage of the speed and flurry.
the ranger could use some more weapon style choices, or possibly skill tricks as part of the class itself
the knight could probably use some way to self heal, or at least a delayed damage pool like the crusader
the soulknife, i feel, should hit on touch AC, like the eldritch glaive warlock

what are some other classes that you think you could fix, and how would you fix htem?

[Darklord Xavez]

Go to the Homebrew Design subforum. It's right below this one on the main forums page.
-Xavez

[Renchard]

1) Gestalt the soulknife and monk into one class, and tack on all the soulbow features to boot. That would make a pretty interesting class. Make sure to have a feature to be able to flurry with both the soulknife and mind arrows.

2) Ranger should be able to spontaneously cast all ranger spells, like a warmage or beguiler. Animal companion should be as a druid of his ranger level.

[Fax Celestis]

Go to the Homebrew Design subforum. It's right below this one on the main forums page.
-Xavez

Or click the banner in my signature. <_<

[Greenish]

as far as i see them, the monk, the soulknife, the ranger, and the knight just need a little bit of fixing.

Unarmed Swordsage, Soulbow, Wildshape ranger/mystic sword of the arcane order ranger/swift hunter, and the crusader.

[true_shinken]

I think the idea of 'fixing' only arises on highly-optimized games.
When you have a low hp Wizard that mostly casts attack spells and a Cleric that just heals wounds, as is the case with most people stuck in the 2nd edition mindset or that actually follow the advice on the core books... then Ranger, Monk and Soulknife do not seem that weak. Seriously, nothing in D&D is prepared for fully optimized full-casters, they simply breeze through everything. It looks like the problem is with them, not with everything else...

[Greenish]

I think the idea of 'fixing' only arises on highly-optimized games.
When you have a low hp Wizard that mostly casts attack spells and a Cleric that just heals wounds, as is the case with most people stuck in the 2nd edition mindset or that actually follow the advice on the core books... then Ranger, Monk and Soulknife do not seem that weak. Seriously, nothing in D&D is prepared for fully optimized full-casters, they simply breeze through everything. It looks like the problem is with them, not with everything else...

Soulknife's only class feature is "I have a magical weapon!" How is that not weak in any game?

[Pluto]

I've given half-casters (ie. Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spellthief) the Bard spell progression for a while without any problems*. I let a Monk player use the Psychic Warrior power progression once without anything going too wrong. Samurai, Marshals, Ninjas, Monks, Knights and Swashbucklers with Warblade maneuver progressions probably wouldn't be a problem (adjusting maneuver lists according to role).

The Fighter class doesn't really have a defining concept; I'd scrap it before trying to fix it.

*edit: I also bar prepared casting of any sort and do terrible things to classes which can rewrite their ability lists daily. That's probably about as relevant as the class bumps.

[Mando Knight]

Or click the banner in my signature. <_<

Well, we don't want to make the other homebrewers feel bad.

[mabriss lethe]

Soulknife's only class feature is "I have a magical weapon!" How is that not weak in any game?

In a low magic setting or in an E6 game, a soulknife is surprisingly good.

[true_shinken]

Soulknife's only class feature is "I have a magical weapon!" How is that not weak in any game?

Oh, sure. Psychic strike, knife to the soul, bonus feats and bladewind are just not Soulknife abilities at all.

[Curmudgeon]

Alternative Class Features (ACFs), substitution levels, feats, and magic items all can help you fix the weak points of such classes. You might be pleasantly surprised by how much you can accomplish with what WotC has already provided.

Let's take the Monk, for instance.

The Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil) trades evasion for the ability to turn invisible (at level 2) for 1 round every 3, and Blink (at level 9) for (WIS mod) rounds at a time. The Kung Fu Genius feat (Dragon Compendium) lets you use your INT mod instead of WIS mod for Monk class abilities; that includes Invisible Fist if you take that ACF. Using some party funds temporarily (because the item can be sold after use) at about level 7, a Monk can train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide); then they can make 10' steps in place of 5' steps. This means the Monk can full attack with Flurry of Blows, then step back 10'. Their opponent has to close so they only get 1 attack. At level 9 the Monk can acquire the Snap Kick feat (Tome of Battle), which gives them another unarmed attack with any form of melee attack (including full attacks, standard action attacks, AoOs, or bonus attacks); that gives the Monk 4 attacks to their opponent's 1.

None of this makes the Monk a strong class, but it does push it up about as much as the Dungeoncrasher variant pushes the Fighter: a noticeable improvement. If you want more improvement give the Wizard only ½ share of party wealth, and the Monk gets 1½ share. Enough of the right gear can shore up a lot of weakness, and the Invisible Fist Monk really needs a Ring of Evasion.

[Da Beast]

Soulknife could use a full base attack bonus for starters. Maybe some bonus feats to go with either two handed or two weapon fighting to power it up a bit more, and some more special striking abilities to make it fun to play. Or just turn it into a psy warrior PrC, like it should be in the first place. Ranger could probably use full level for animal companion, boosted spell casting options (some good ones were listed above) and maybe both combat feat trees for free. I'm not really familiar with the knight so I can't comment on that one, and monk is such a mess I'd sooner just scrap it and replace it with an unarmed swordsage.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Oh, sure. Psychic strike, knife to the soul, bonus feats and bladewind are just not Soulknife abilities at all.

They're also a psionic class without any real access to powers by virtue of class.

[true_shinken]

They're also a psionic class without any real access to powers by virtue of class.

So what? Psionic races are also psionics with no powers.
...and you are wrong anyway, Mind's Eye has a variant that gives Soulknive's powers.

[nekomata2]

That variant gives them 1 first level power. Really, Soulknife fixes are the PsyWar ACF, or remaking the 3.0 PrC, or making a new PrC. The 3.0 one comes off as more of a rogue.

For monks, maybe if the flurry was a standard action that would help, or upgrade them to full BAB.

The ranger has some good ACFs and feat support, and are my favorite for entering MoMF.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

So what? Psionic races are also psionics with no powers.
...and you are wrong anyway, Mind's Eye has a variant that gives Soulknive's powers.

Fair enough on the Mind's Eye variant, but I do find that the default Soulknife kind of just sits there laying claim to being psionic by virtue of power points rather than via powers.

Now, there are some psionic races who are also psionic for the same reason as the unaltered Soulknife, which I do find unfortunate, but most of them have either a PLA or some psionically fueled ability to them.

[Greenish]

So what? Psionic races are also psionics with no powers.

Except half-giants, dromites, duergar and maenads, who have PLAs, and elans who can use their power points to fuel racial abilities.

[Optimystik]

So what? Psionic races are also psionics with no powers.
...and you are wrong anyway, Mind's Eye has a variant that gives Soulknive's powers.

1) Most psionic races have something to do with their PP, however. Soulknife? Doesn't.

2) It gives them a power. ONE! First-level!

[LingVudka]

This thread seems to have quietened down and I hope I'm not too late but:

Monk -

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• Full BAB with Unarmed Strike only, all other weapons get 3/4 BAB even the Monk special weapons. A Monk's body is their greatest weapon and should stay that way.
• Let a Monk enhance their body much like the OA Samurai can their weapons.
• Increase Wholeness of Body to Wisdom x Monk levels. Like a Paladin's Lay on Hands.
• Abundant Step more than 1/day.
• Allow Quivering Palm active more than 1/week but only one at any one time and make the Monk take damage based on the creatures HD when the Monk wills the creature to die. Also have the target creature take damage on a successful save.
• At higher levels have Wholeness of Body able to recover ability points.
• Give more Monk related bonus feats above level 6.
• A better capstone please?

Ninja -

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• Am I the only one that thinks a Ninja's class abilities are out of power order? I personally think Ghost Step (Ethereal) is much stronger than Greater Ki Dodge and there are others. Also I think Ki Dodge (and Greater) should be immediate actions.
• I also think giving a Ninja Mirror Image is perfect. (Bunshin no jutsu!!) As is giving Imp Ini as a bonus feat at 1st and Danger Sense as a bonus feat somewhere. They definitely don't overpower the Ninja
• I've also been toying with the idea of giving bonus feat choices to the Ninja that are relative to their class. Like acrobatic combat feats and skill improving feats. Alternate them up through the levels.
• Give them a bonus to saves against Divination and Detection abilities. A Ninja should never be seen.
• Make Ghost Mind work against more detection abilities but have a DC = 15 + Ninja levels. Possible to beat by a very high level caster but still difficult. Also make it so that Ninja are always aware if they're being scryed even if it succeeds.

Marshal -

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• Give it abilities that allow it to impart their own feats to surrounding allies (for a very limited time).
• Make it have Fighter levels equal to Marshal -4.
• Give it special abilities where it can boost allies by either charging in first or acting as a rally symbol for defence. Big 1/day abilities.
• I also think giving it the ability to rearrange their allies initiative order could be powerful and useful.
• A capstone please?

Paladin -
Anything I could say has probably already been said and in a much better way. My attempt at Paladin is in my signature and there are other damn good versions out there.

Samurai -
I think this class was slapped together with not much in mind. The OA version is just a Fighter and the CW version is simply poor. There's too much adjustment to put it in here. I decided to merge them and give other stuff. I like to think of Rurouni Kenshin when I think of a Samurai's abilities.

Soulknife -
I love the concept and think of it as more the skirmisher of the Psionic groups.

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• More class skills! They've got practically none.
• Auto Weapon Finesse with a Mind Blade.
• Why oh why did they limit the enhancements that can be applied to a Mind Blade? Total nerfing.
• Have Psychic Strike affect any Non-mindless creature and cause max damage on a crit.
• Give it Hidden Talent, Wild Talent is so underpar in comparison. Or better yet how about both (at differing levels) and a 1st level power choice.
• Give it some self boosting PSL's relative to it's Soulknife levels. They power up as it does. Simples.
• I like the idea of Knife to the Soul affecting spell slots and power points OR mental stats. Then a Soulknife starts to worry a caster or manifester, especially if the Soulknife is a sneaky Skirmisher.
• At higher levels give it the ability to imbue Psychic Strike as a swift action. Whether it applies to a whole attack or not.....??
• A capstone please? I think it should be good whether the Soulknife is close combat or skirmisher focussed. Maybe something that lets them control a combat zone or move freely about.

Swashbuckler -

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• I think Swashbucklers are just plain lucky at not getting screwed or if they are they should have unusual options for getting out of... whatever.
• The ACF Shield of Blades is nice and I'm tempted to give it as well as the Dodge bonus.
• Give Lucky more times/day. It's no more broken than a Clerics domain ability.
• Swashbucklers are charming and silvertongued. Give them a bonus to Charisma skills and interactions. Maybe even an extraordinary suggestive ability. (I think a Swashbuckler should only have (Ex) abilities).
• Bonus feats for a combat style like the Spring Attack tree right up to Rapid Blitz.
• Let them apply their Dexterity bonus to damge as well at higher levels.
• And why not have them qualify as a Fighter of 4 levels lower?
• A capstone please?

Well that's my 2cp.

[Tyndmyr]

Throw feats at the problem. Enough feats solves all ills.

[Eloel]

Throw feats at the problem. Enough feats solves all ills.

No, it doesn't.

[Wings of Peace]

I think the idea of 'fixing' only arises on highly-optimized games.
When you have a low hp Wizard that mostly casts attack spells and a Cleric that just heals wounds, as is the case with most people stuck in the 2nd edition mindset or that actually follow the advice on the core books... then Ranger, Monk and Soulknife do not seem that weak. Seriously, nothing in D&D is prepared for fully optimized full-casters, they simply breeze through everything. It looks like the problem is with them, not with everything else...

That's not optimization that's just playing smart.

[Tyndmyr]

No, it doesn't.

Nah, not just "bonus feats from this list". Actual honest to goodness feats. The fighter feat list is lengthy, but is limited to very steriotypical fightery things. Adding real bonus feats would give the fighter both more power and more build variety.

[Panigg]

Nah, not just "bonus feats from this list". Actual honest to goodness feats. The fighter feat list is lengthy, but is limited to very steriotypical fightery things. Adding real bonus feats would give the fighter both more power and more build variety.

Well damage/control/survival can be solved with more feats.

Specially damage is not a huge problem for a fighter.

[LingVudka]

I agree Tyndmyr. Perhaps every 2nd or 3rd bonus Fighter feat can be taken as any feat? It would certainly allow more 'interesting' builds.

I do think as well that some of the Fighter feats could do with increasing in power as the Fighter levels up. There are so many homebrew adjustments though that it's difficult to really see what's nice. Perhaps a thread with all the specific homebrew Fighter feats and adjustments?

[Greenish]

Swashbuckler -

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• I think Swashbucklers are just plain lucky at not getting screwed or if they are they should have unusual options for getting out of... whatever.
• The ACF Shield of Blades is nice and I'm tempted to give it as well as the Dodge bonus.
• Give Lucky more times/day. It's no more broken than a Clerics domain ability.
• Swashbucklers are charming and silvertongued. Give them a bonus to Charisma skills and interactions. Maybe even an extraordinary suggestive ability. (I think a Swashbuckler should only have (Ex) abilities).
• Bonus feats for a combat style like the Spring Attack tree right up to Rapid Blitz.
• Let them apply their Dexterity bonus to damge as well at higher levels.
• And why not have them qualify as a Fighter of 4 levels lower?
• A capstone please?

No swashbuckler fix is complete without giving them at least the proficiency for bucklers, if not a special ability to swash them.

[Roland St. Jude]

This thread seems to have quietened down and I hope I'm not too late but:
...

Sheriff of Moddingham: Technically, you're too late. This is Thread Necromancy. It seems to have generated discussion, so while it earns you a Warning not to do that again, I'll leave it open.

[Fouredged Sword]

A swash is a kind of belt. It has a large buckle. The archtype swashbuckler buckles his swash, all the while wielding a rapier in one hand and nothing in the other.

I would grant them a dodge bonus while wielding a weapon finesse weapon in one hand an nothing else. Maybe level/4 as a doge bonus.

Ether that or give them the abilities of a factotum of level/2. That may be an interesting synergy.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

For Swashbucklers, I'd probably expand upon the Wall of Blades ACF from PHB2 due to how common rapiers were with the main gauche.