So let's say you're a Devil... [3.5]

[Zaq]

So, let's say you're a hotshot Harvester Devil who's pretty damned good (yuk yuk) at getting folks to enter into contracts with you. Sure, you don't usually get their souls out of the deal on the first try, but since you've spent an eternity or two learning and practicing the most complex and evil legalese in the multiverse, you pretty much always get the better end of the deal. In fact, you're so good at finding loopholes in things that you're willing to let the other party draw up the contract for you, because you can STILL find ambiguity in the wording and use it to get what you want. You're good.

So, you approach some adventurer-type in need and offer him a little help. You even offer up the chance for him to write the contract, confident that he'll fall for the "oh, well if I'M writing it, he can't include any clauses that screw me over!" trick, and sure enough he agrees.

Then the little smartass rubs his Amulet of the Silver Tongue, fires off a Universal Aptitude, gets a 50- or 60-odd on his check, and hands you a contract written in Truespeak.

Is this an act of war?

[arguskos]

Is this an act of war?

No, because you know someone in Baator who speaks Truespeak (perhaps a Logokron Devil who owes you one) and you have him translate it for you. Ta-da, you still win.

Also, this topic is awesome.

[AmberVael]

Is this an act of war?

No. It's a sign to fulfill the contract without any funny business and get away as fast as you can.

Why? Because you're a really good harvester devil. You're smart enough know there are all kinds of people you can get, easy, but this guy could put a stop to your whole career. Could you beat him? Maybe, but this guy is good enough to where it is possible you won't- and in fact, he might just pull something over on you.

Best to cut losses and look for an easier target. That's just how business goes. You get the best profits by picking the easy and lucrative targets, not the hard ones who could mess everything up.

[Reynard]

No, because you can refuse to to sign, and honestly, you let him write it, making it basically your fault.

[The Tygre]

It is now also an act of you getting demoted back to Lemure so hard it's not even funny. Depending who you work under, of course.

[Heliomance]

No, because you know someone in Baator who speaks Truespeak (perhaps a Logokron Devil who owes you one) and you have him translate it for you. Ta-da, you still win.

Also, this topic is awesome.

The point isn't that you don't understand Truespeak. The point is that Truespeak is the most fundamental of all languages, and there simply aren't any loopholes.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I think at this point you laugh in his face for becoming a Truenamer. Then you go somewhere else, and later tell your logokron devil friend about some uppity mortal who thinks he knows Truespeech.

[crazedloon]

You point out (if I am not mistaken) that truename is not a literary language and thus can not be used to write a contract. The best he could do would be use the true names of the people involved and the truenames of the services requested. However the actual legal lingo in between is going to have to be in some other tongue which leaves wiggle rooms.

Also because I don't think the player would know the devils truename there is even more wiggle room because the player in his haste decided he wanted to use the devils type's truename in the contract binding any random devil (not Yuk Yuk) to fulfill half of the deal

edit: and just because it is a language doesn't mean that it has words for everything, the dwarven language if I recall correctly has no words for none material things thus the reason gnome is an entirely different language with its insubstantial words

[arguskos]

The point isn't that you don't understand Truespeak. The point is that Truespeak is the most fundamental of all languages, and there simply aren't any loopholes.

Of course there are loopholes. Even the basic fundamental languages have loopholes, through bad writing, bad interpretations, or just realizing he used incorrect grammar. Nothing present implies that Truespeak is immune to any of the above.

[tyckspoon]

edit: and just because it is a language doesn't mean that it has words for everything, the dwarven language if I recall correctly has no words for none material things thus the reason gnome is an entirely different language with its insubstantial words

Except it does have words for everything, because it's Truespeech. The entire point of Truespeech is having words- very exact, explicit, absolute- words for everything. They are in fact the words that tell everything what everything is.

The devil should still have right of refusal, same as his targets do (the trick is usually convincing them the deal is good enough to not use it.) He can look over the Truespeak contract and just go "ok, nice try, now write it in Common." Unless Smartass the Devil was overconfident enough to hand his target a sheaf of paper pre-signed with "I, Smartass the Devil, am hereby bound to fulfill the conditions of this contract" and then let the Truenamer just fill in what he wanted above it. In which case he deserves whatever happens to him.

[Heliomance]

Of course there are loopholes. Even the basic fundamental languages have loopholes, through bad writing, bad interpretations, or just realizing he used incorrect grammar. Nothing present implies that Truespeak is immune to any of the above.

On the other hand, getting a 60 on the check does. And there can't be any bad interpretations in Truespeak, because it's the language that tells reality what it is. Thus, everything must be perfectly described, or the universe would not function.

[crazedloon]

Except it does have words for everything, because it's Truespeech. The entire point of Truespeech is having words- very exact, explicit, absolute- words for everything. They are in fact the words that tell everything what everything is.

ok the dwarven example was just to explain a language which omits certain things.

But do explain how truespeak has a word for "because"? or pronouns? or other essential words for legalease. It can name an describe anything without wiggleroom, however the words that bind the true names (note it is names not adverbs and adjectives) are going to have to be something else. So for example if smart ass player wants the most expensive item in the world he best know its true name or else he can not ask for it. because truenameing does not have the words "most" or "expensive" "item" all words which are ether vague or descriptions all of which are not needed when a language is designed to describe things simply by name.

edit: also one is assuming with a 60 you know all the required truenames for a contract but as the ToM says even the best truenamers do not know every word so I would say a 60 aint going to give you everything required for a contract

edit2: it is also the amulet of the silver tongue, he is writing the contract not saying it. Just because he can pronounce the words does not mean he can correctly write them down.

edit3: to back up my claims the ToM describes there only being 3 kinds of truenames. Actions, proper nouns, and nouns (and very very specific non proper nouns at that)

[arguskos]

On the other hand, getting a 60 on the check does. And there can't be any bad interpretations in Truespeak, because it's the language that tells reality what it is. Thus, everything must be perfectly described, or the universe would not function.

Well, yes, a 60 on the check is pretty good. It doesn't mean it's flawless though (nothing is ever flawless). I still think the Devil might be able to find a loophole (you have centuries of experience, with anything and everything written). It's an interesting thought experiment nevertheless.

[Riffington]

So you have a fair contract. That's ok. Devils still make a (small) profit on fair contracts. Fair contracts are their bread-and-butter.

Obviously you're not going to waste time/effort advertising to this guy again - he's not a mark, and you won't make any spectacular profit off him. But if he approaches you for a fair deal again, it might still be worth doing business with him.

Although... the fact that he writes his contracts in so airtight a fashion may give him overconfidence about things not in the contract. If you're clever you can use this to get his soul if you care enough about him.

[Heliomance]

So you have a fair contract. That's ok. Devils still make a (small) profit on fair contracts. Fair contracts are their bread-and-butter.

Obviously you're not going to waste time/effort advertising to this guy again - he's not a mark, and you won't make any spectacular profit off him. But if he approaches you for a fair deal again, it might still be worth doing business with him.

Although... the fact that he writes his contracts in so airtight a fashion may give him overconfidence about things not in the contract. If you're clever you can use this to get his soul if you care enough about him.

This. Assuming the contract isn't totally screwing the devil over, in which case the correct response is "Ha ha, no."

[Flickerdart]

Can Truespeech be written down? Does it have an alphabet?

[true_shinken]

Of course truespeak has words for "because", "most" and the like. Most of the times, you need to use Truespeak in this way - "Reversed Words of Nurturing on the tall orc wearing a blue shirt", "unlock the third drawer from down up" and things like that.

[Zaq]

Can Truespeech be written down? Does it have an alphabet?

ToM has a fluff passage that mentions someone who tattooed an utterance onto their body in a failed attempt to make it permanent. Even though writing it down produces no magic, I think that this is evidence that it can be written.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

Of course truespeak has words for "because", "most" and the like. Most of the times, you need to use Truespeak in this way - "Reversed Words of Nurturing on the tall orc wearing a blue shirt", "unlock the third drawer from down up" and things like that.

if truespeak is a perfect language and according to fluff it is beacause it is the language which governs the fundamental laws of the universe, then it must be a language of math/perfect logic. so. . . either that contract is a big list of if-then statements. . . or its the universes equivalent of binary. . . and thus any flaw is impossible because a flaw would unmake the enitre contract. so if its capable of being complete which it is cause it was handed to the devil, then it's a perfect contract. . .

from the devils perspective, it comes down to the conditions. if he's willing to meet the conditions then okay. . . basic fair deal.

if he's not, well **** you win adventurer but i'm not signing that, better luck next lifetime.

[Riva]

Hahaha, interesting idea.

Personally, I'd read through the contract and if it was normally amenable I'd follow through. Some mortal now has a completely erroneous idea about his ability to trick me, and all I have to do is wait until he's in a bind so bad that he won't have the time for anything but a verbal contract. And then I bind him in service, make him write some pre-fab legal forms for deals against (never with) other devils. Really, the guys got some talent, put it to use!

[Salbazier]

ok the dwarven example was just to explain a language which omits certain things.

But do explain how truespeak has a word for "because"? or pronouns? or other essential words for legalease. It can name an describe anything without wiggleroom, however the words that bind the true names (note it is names not adverbs and adjectives) are going to have to be something else. So for example if smart ass player wants the most expensive item in the world he best know its true name or else he can not ask for it. because truenameing does not have the words "most" or "expensive" "item" all words which are ether vague or descriptions all of which are not needed when a language is designed to describe things simply by name.

edit: also one is assuming with a 60 you know all the required truenames for a contract but as the ToM says even the best truenamers do not know every word so I would say a 60 aint going to give you everything required for a contract

edit2: it is also the amulet of the silver tongue, he is writing the contract not saying it. Just because he can pronounce the words does not mean he can correctly write them down.

edit3: to back up my claims the ToM describes there only being 3 kinds of truenames. Actions, proper nouns, and nouns (and very very specific non proper nouns at that)

Ehm, the truespeech has words for everything. And if I'm not wrong, the fluff of truespeech in DnD is not about truenames (only?) but true verbs Describing how something works or happening or such. The nouns are less important than other words

[crazedloon]

Of course truespeak has words for "because", "most" and the like. Most of the times, you need to use Truespeak in this way - "Reversed Words of Nurturing on the tall orc wearing a blue shirt", "unlock the third drawer from down up" and things like that.

No this is not true, as the fluff describes the reason you can choose the orc n the blue shirt is because as he changes or does certain things his truename alters. It is this you invoke not the description words.

Again those words I gave as an example are nether nouns or verbs which are the 2 only types of words in truespeech

if truespeak is a perfect language and according to fluff it is beacause it is the language which governs the fundamental laws of the universe, then it must be a language of math/perfect logic. so. . . either that contract is a big list of if-then statements. . . or its the universes equivalent of binary. . . and thus any flaw is impossible because a flaw would unmake the enitre contract.

This logic is not sound. Just because you have a bunch of words on paper (or for your example binary or if/than statements) does not mean they work as intended or at all. As the words on the page do not govern anything (again the fallacy that truespeak can be used as a language for communication) they simply spell things out. The advantage (because there is one) is that it is much easier to avoid loopholes such as you the under signed by stating in the contract the devils true name.

so if its capable of being complete which it is cause it was handed to the devil, then it's a perfect contract. . .

Just because the PC thinks he finished it correctly does not mean he did so. Simply put he could have written a few things incorrectly or a few words he thought meant 1 thing mean another so there are plenty of loopholes as a DM that can be taken.

Another thing that needs to be understood is the fact that you have truespeak as a skill and not as a language known. This means you do not know every word so simply put the PC might not be able to write all of what he wants in truespeak even with a very high check.

[gbprime]

He got a 60, so what? The GRAMMAR may be perfect, but the underlying logic or deal could be flawed.

But yeah, if the devil in question doesn't know truespeech, you hand it back to him, thank him for trying to impress the devil on his first attempt, and ask him to rewrite it in one of the scripts he does know, or no deal.

[Binks]

then it must be a language of math/perfect logic. so. . . either that contract is a big list of if-then statements. . . or its the universes equivalent of binary. . . and thus any flaw is impossible because a flaw would unmake the entire contract.

Pure if-then statements can have loopholes when you stack on enough of them. Look up emergence sometime, being purely logical doesn't protect at all from chaotic unintended consequences. The easiest one is just to make the first condition of the if statement false (so if they write something like 'if I'm in x location you do y' you just sign it, then kill them so they can't ever be in x location). The 60 is the problem (if that's allowed, using a verbal based item to boost a written check), not the language.

Realistically though the best bet is just to fulfill the contract, eat whatever small fee it costs you, and then go hit someone else. Unless of course the contract is extremely painful to you, in which case not signing it is probably your best bet, followed by (if you were dumb enough to swear to sign it) looking for a loophole.

[Noedig]

Ask smartass to wait a moment.
Haul ass back to your superiors and let them know whats happening.
Go back to smartass and offer him a job.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I third the sentiment of get this guy to work writing unbreakable contracts. Seriously this contract could be a single freakin sentence that says.

"Party A will supply party B with service X within Q time in exchange Party B will F within D of A's performance of X for B."

Truenaming there are ways of expressing anything and anything the way eskimos describe snow.

As for running to a logokron unless you happen to know an advanced logokron he'll be in no hurry to tangle with this Truenamer.

Oh so I'm assuming that the parties verbally negotiated terms and the truenamer was just allowed to write up the contract right, so the devil isn't getting screwed here he's just not doing any screwing. Am I right?

[Binks]

"Party A will supply party B with service X within Q time in exchange Party B will F within D of A's performance of X for B."

So party B's repayment is based off of A's supplying of a service? Make it so that your service is so good that they'd have to pay more than they have, contract broken, particularly if you get them to add a 'within Q time' clause to their repayment. This, of course, assumes you can perform the service better than they can pay for it but if they could pay for the service on their own why are they making a deal with the devil?

(and that doesn't look like a grammatically correct sentence, much less a contract, unless F and D are some really complex concepts...I'm assuming you mean something like "Party A will supply party B with service X within Q time. In exchange Party B will pay F based on A's performance of X for B." If you meant something else then my example breaking won't work, but it's probably still breakable, even if there's a truename for an abstract concept like 'will' or 'service')

[Custos Sophiae]

There are languages where adjectives are a type of verb, and ones where verbs take the place of propositions - stative and vector verbs. In outline, rather than say 'the tree is green', you say 'the tree greens'; rather than say 'he walked into the bar', you say 'walking he entered the bar.'

Restricting truespeak to verbs and nouns doesn't prevent it being a complete language; it just means it's not much like English, hardly surprising.

However, even supposing the contract is a flawless description of what its writer intended, there will still be things not thought of, loopholes through which the devil can slide.

[Yora]

"Party A will supply party B with service X within Q time. In exchange Party B will pay F based on A's performance of X for B."

When dealing with devils, this seems a very stupid contract. This allows party A to set the service and the payment as he wants, without B knowing what he will get and what he will have to pay.

[Prodan]

Is this an act of war?

Depends. Is there an arbitration clause in which all disputes are settled via fiddling contests?