(4e) How does your group use backgrounds?

[Ozreth]

So I've been slowly getting my feet wet in 4e. As much as I think 3.5 is a better game (I'm all about simulation and not much of a combat buff) something about 4e keeps me coming back to the books, not quite sure what it is yet.

Anyhoo, been looking at backgrounds. I've also noticed them popping up in modules and random fluff books.

To what extent does your group use them and how do you incorporate them into your game? Does your character stick by them like glue?

Any insight would help. Thanks : )

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

I'd also like to piggyback on this question and ask if they're balanced. As far as I can tell, they give characters bonuses with no drawbacks. I'm considering having my party use backgrounds, but it seems like they'd just get a little bit more powerful with nothing to balance it.

If we do use them, I'd have them be very RP-oriented, not just another bonus for optimizers to pile on.

[Myshlaevsky]

I'm not a big fan of backgrounds and generally prefer not to use them. If it was a given for the game I'd pick one, though, and if I was asked to include them in a game I ran I probably would.

[randomhero00]

What we do to make it less likely someone will just pick a background for the bonus is give in character consequences. So for instance ask the character things like this when he firsts joins, "Why can't you tell us about yourself? You want us to trust us with your lives but you won't tell us where your from?" etc. Those types of questions.

Besides, its not like they're that big of bonuses.

[Coidzor]

If we do use them, I'd have them be very RP-oriented, not just another bonus for optimizers to pile on.

Um. Seriously? The edition already did that. In order to get anything like a pile of bonuses, one has to work and scrape for it.

As far as boosts in power go, a bonus language known and a single skill added to one's class list of taggable skills... not very powerful. The most powerful one I've seen so far was the one that allows 2 MC feats, which only benefits someone who'll actually "multiclass" like that and "multiclassing" carries its own opportunity costs.

Or are there some backgrounds that actually have some advantage to take them beyond a +1 to a skill at most?

[Zaq]

We actually ignore the fluff entirely and use them as strictly mechanical benefits.

Everyone gets one, so the party's balanced (on this count, at least), and I have yet to see one creating the decisive difference between awesome and suck. Personally, I used mine to make a flavor consideration more mechanically powerful (my class's stat setup doesn't really support being good at History, but I want the character to be good at History anyway, so I took the one that lets me reroll a bad History check), but we don't see much of an issue with just treating it like any other mechanical bonus. Most of the fluff attached is pretty stupid, so we don't mind ignoring it. If a player wants to use the fluff attached, they're free to do so, but we certainly don't require it. No problems so far.

[Myshlaevsky]

Um. Seriously? The edition already did that. In order to get anything like a pile of bonuses, one has to work and scrape for it.

As far as boosts in power go, a bonus language known and a single skill added to one's class list of taggable skills... not very powerful. The most powerful one I've seen so far was the one that allows 2 MC feats, which only benefits someone who'll actually "multiclass" like that and "multiclassing" carries its own opportunity costs.

Or are there some backgrounds that actually have some advantage to take them beyond a +1 to a skill at most?

Windrise Ports, the one you are talking about, is pretty broken.

Edit: Which indicates another problem with backgrounds: they're poorly balanced against each other.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Actually, if you just stick to Backgrounds from published books (e.g. PHB, DP) you'll find them all very balanced. Oh, and only allow one to grant the bonus.

Personally, I was against them but now I'm a fan:

(1) Between PCs, there is little to no power disparity

(2) It helps to give "unusual" characters access to a Skill that fits them, but is unavailable to their Class

My one concern is that strictly powergamers are going to pick silly/boring backgrounds to get access to useful skills or bonuses. To this end, I'd recommend only using them if your players are already character-focused; otherwise it's just another pointless bit of min/maxing.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd also like to piggyback on this question and ask if they're balanced.

Short answer: no, they're not. Not at all.

Most backgrounds simply add one or two skills to your class list and give you a bonus to those, and/or an extra language. Those are all balanced, and generally not all that relevant in gameplay except for the (few) skill-starved classes like fighters.

Then there's Windrise Ports, which allows you to multiclass twice. While in and of itself this is not impressive, it does enable certain obscure combos, and indeed many charop builds rely on this.

And then there's Auspicous Birth and Born Under A Bad Sign, either of which lets you base your hit points on your highest ability score rather than constitution. This easily gives you +8 or more HP at heroic tier, and barring charop combos these are by far the best backgrounds for almost every character.

Overall the background system feels like an afterthought. I'd personally rather not use them (or at least, not their mechanical side).

[Kiero]

We use them in my group. I don't think they're completely balanced; the FR ones seem a little better than the rest.

[nightwyrm]

Our group doesn't used the published backgrounds. Each PCs just write up a backstory and select one of the bonuses (+2 to a skill, extra class skill or extra language) appropriate to their background as detailed in the phb2.

[TheEmerged]

We use them in my group. I don't think they're completely balanced; the FR ones seem a little better than the rest.

/yoda-voice on
There is no seems. The FR ones *are* better
/yoda-voice off

I actually backward-engineered what appeared to be the system they used to create the ones in FR. For one thing I'm a HERO system player and that's just the sort of thing I do (I'm used to having the game's root mechanics spelled out, so it annoys me when they aren't). For another, I wanted to adapt ones for my own campaign world.

Essentially, the FR backgrounds added up to 6 "points" where adding a +2 to skill cost 2 points, gaining +3 to a skill cost 4 points, gaining a language cost 2 points, adding a class skill cost 2 points, the ability to reroll a skill check cost 4 points, and +1 to initiative cost 2 points. I seem to recall determining your HP from something other than CON was 4 points. There was *something* that came out to 3 points but I don't remember what it was...

By comparison, the backgrounds we started seeing in PHB2 are generally of the 2 point variety (+2 to a skill or a new class skill). So they're 1/3 as useful as the FR backgrounds.

-------------------

For my own campaign, I've been allowing the characters to choose one for mechanic reasons (I'm not familiar with Windrise Port or the Auspicious Birth/Bad Sign backgrounds, where were they printed?). The actual background is then either written up by the player or rolled out using the Hero Builder tables from 3.0 and then written up. All 5 players ended up taking +2 to a key skill (the halfling rogue took Thievery, the wizard took Arcana, and so forth) -- of course they know I tend to run skill checks more often than many DM's.

[Mando Knight]

The early ones (Scales of War and Forgotten Realms) are poorly balanced to each other, let alone to the rest of the backgrounds. The ones afterward, premiering in PHB2, are balanced to each other.

They're generally balanced and useful so long as all the PCs are permitted to choose one. Personally, I like scrolling through the backgrounds, piecing together a few, and then that lets me flesh out a text background in addition to the mechanical one.

[Kurald Galain]

Essentially, the FR backgrounds added up to 6 "points" where adding a +2 to skill cost 2 points, gaining +3 to a skill cost 4 points, gaining a language cost 2 points, adding a class skill cost 2 points, the ability to reroll a skill check cost 4 points, and +1 to initiative cost 2 points. I seem to recall determining your HP from something other than CON was 4 points.

Sure, but those point values are arbitrary. For instance, +3 to a skill is clearly not twice as good as +2 to a skill, yet it does cost twice as many points. A skill reroll is statistically better than a +3. And none of this really compares to the ability to fully dump your con score and still gain +10 hit points.

(I'm not familiar with Windrise Port or the Auspicious Birth/Bad Sign backgrounds, where were they printed?).

Dragon Magazine. However, FRPG does have Thay and Impiltur, which do basically the same as AB/BS, only for Int and Wis respectively.

I like getting an extra class skill or two. I do not like that in LFR, pretty much everybody is using the extra-HP backgrounds. They're not unbalanced in the sense that they break the game, but they are unbalanced in the sense that (for most characters) there is a clear and obvious "best" option that outclasses all the others.

[Coidzor]

And none of this really compares to the ability to fully dump your con score and still gain +10 hit points.


Dragon Magazine. However, FRPG does have Thay and Impiltur, which do basically the same as AB/BS, only for Int and Wis respectively.

I like getting an extra class skill or two. I do not like that in LFR, pretty much everybody is using the extra-HP backgrounds. They're not unbalanced in the sense that they break the game, but they are unbalanced in the sense that (for most characters) there is a clear and obvious "best" option that outclasses all the others.

Wait... does that mean that those characters no longer need CON at all except for the Fort Defense (maybe) or for prerequisites for feats, thus reducing an entire ability score dependency for those characters? Ok, not quite as powerful as I was thinking they'd be... But still pretty good.

Also, didn't know those were around in LFR... Then again, I was never able to find what's actually legal in LFR when I was poking around for their ban/allow list.

[Reluctance]

It probably doesn't help that most of the power backgrounds were designed for FR. They seem pretty big on blatant power bribery to convince you to tie your character into the world.

I'll chime in with the masses and say that generic backgrounds (+2 skill, learn a language, or add a class skill) work well. Leave out the other benefit types unless you're specifically going for a higher powered game.

[Kurald Galain]

Wait... does that mean that those characters no longer need CON at all except for the Fort Defense (maybe) or for prerequisites for feats, thus reducing an entire ability score dependency for those characters?

Well, yes. You can make a strong character in pretty much any class with two good ability scores, dumping the other four.

I was never able to find what's actually legal in LFR when I was poking around for their ban/allow list.

Everything from the PHBs, AVs, Race/Power splatbooks, FRPG, EPG, minis, and Dragon Mag is legal, with the exception of dragonmarks.

[TheEmerged]

Sure, but those point values are arbitrary. For instance, +3 to a skill is clearly not twice as good as +2 to a skill, yet it does cost twice as many points. A skill reroll is statistically better than a +3. And none of this really compares to the ability to fully dump your con score and still gain +10 hit points.


Dragon Magazine. However, FRPG does have Thay and Impiltur, which do basically the same as AB/BS, only for Int and Wis respectively.

I like getting an extra class skill or two. I do not like that in LFR, pretty much everybody is using the extra-HP backgrounds. They're not unbalanced in the sense that they break the game, but they are unbalanced in the sense that (for most characters) there is a clear and obvious "best" option that outclasses all the others.

I know, but that was the system they used. I forget the exact backgrounds that showed that equivalency and don't have the file with my notes at home. Personally I'd like to see the return of that reroll option somewhere (we've seen it for a few utility powers). The "alternate HP" one I sortof knew was going to cause trouble and I won't miss it.

[Tengu_temp]

The early ones (Scales of War and Forgotten Realms) are poorly balanced to each other, let alone to the rest of the backgrounds. The ones afterward, premiering in PHB2, are balanced to each other.

This. I use the PHB2 backgrounds in my campaign - they work well and let the players pick small, but flavorful bonuses. SoW and FR backgrounds are terribly imbalanced, as shown by other discussion in this thread. Letting you use your highest stat for HP is not a good thing when the alternatives just give small skill bonuses.

[Mando Knight]

This. I use the PHB2 backgrounds in my campaign - they work well and let the players pick small, but flavorful bonuses.

I like the small bonuses, since it lets me put a few points in Athletics even if it's not trained (how many times did you wish your Wizard could jump that gap?), and something recently showed me that I should almost always have a decent Endurance, but I can't quite remember what...

[Kurald Galain]

(how many times did you wish your Wizard could jump that gap?),

Never. Real wizards use teleport

[BobTheDog]

Never. Real wizards use teleport fly

FIFY.

[Mando Knight]

Never. Real wizards use teleport

Level 1 wizard, 10' gap. Unless you're an Eladrin or managed to get Athletics trained somehow, it'll be difficult to clear it.

[Coidzor]

Level 1 wizard, 2 square gap. Unless you're an Eladrin or managed to get Athletics trained somehow, it'll be difficult to clear it.

Fixed it for you.

[Ozreth]

Fixed it for you.

One of the worst changes in 4e imo, as small as it may be haha.

Anyways thanks for all of the insight. It seems that a lot of people use them mainly for mechanics but it can help with fluff as well.

Good to hear that a lot of them are balanced too.