Star Wars

[Superglucose]

So I'm thinking of learning a Star Wars system and maybe running a game since I love Star Wars so very much and crave Jedi on Jedi action. Can anyone give me their personal opinions on the various Star Wars systems out there? I know there's the 3rd ed d20 version and the d6 version, and I've heard of a 4th ed d20 version.

Which ones do you think are the best/most balanced, and why? Learning a new system is not a problem, I'm pretty bright and I think I can figure it out without too many issues, especially with a book right there. I'm only looking for commentary on the various systems themselves. Thanks!

[Binks]

Never played the d6 system unfortunately but I've played Revised core (the d&d 3.5 star wars) and Saga Edition (the 4e style). Personally I think Saga edition is far better, but I know there are plenty of people with the opposite opinion.

Pretty much if you're alright with not having skill points, using training, focus, and +1/2 your level to all skills instead Saga is a better choice. The force system* is better, vehicle combat** is actually possible without getting into grappling-level rule debates, the condition track is a reasonable means of simulating exhaustion in combat (if a bit easy to break), and while there are plenty of broken builds and breakable rules they tend to be the type that are visible from orbit and easy for a good GM to derail or refuse.

So personally I'd recommend Saga edition. It's far from perfect but the number of ways to break the game isn't huge, it's pretty fun to build characters in (you basically get a 'new toy' at every level between feats and talents) and it's a lot simpler than RCR in a good way.

* In RCR force powers are cast by spending your vitality, which is basically your hp. In Saga you cast from a 'suite' of force powers, so you could have 2xlightning and move object for instance, in which case you could use lightning twice a battle and move object once (you can refresh your suite mid battle, but unless you build for it it's more practical to just start swinging your lightsaber).

** Vehicle combat in saga is basically normal combat on a bigger scale with multiple turns per vehicle (depending on crew). In RCR it's...complex to say the least, between the stunts, the different rules for space and land vehicles, and the various other things.

EDIT: I've never played 4e (not for lack of trying) but I've heard saga referred to as 'Beta 4E' and 'RCR with 4E rules' on the official forums quite a few times. If it's really not at all similar then I apologize but that's the impression I've been given by people who have played both.

[KillianHawkeye]

Saga Edition is nothing like D&D 4E!!!


It is, however, a great system and fairly well balanced. Provided that you use the errata.

[Dienekes]

d6 = Saga (close enough that it depends on personal opinion) >>>> RCR >> d20

Saga is better if you like the d20 system. Very flexible and fun system that allows a great amount of customizability between classes, meaning that there are no penalties to multiclass and the class abilities are of the pick and choose nature. Meaning that five straight Soldiers (the fighter types) can play completely different from each other. The Force system is based off of TOB maneuver style suites, and if you get the Starship supplement (which you should) so is starship combat.
Some things to watch out for= at low levels a Force user who takes the Skill Focus (Use the Force) feat will be overpowered but tend to come back when hitting the middle levels. Watch out for players who focus on taking down the Condition Track, if optimized fully they can be nightmares against boss type opponents.

d6 is from West End Games. This system is remarkably easy to learn and intuitive to homebrew as you go. There are no classes, so the players can take their character through whatever style of gaming they like. However, if used to DnD style rules this can be a breaker since they are very different. I'd almost argue it's more freeform than Saga. The basic principle is that you have 6 Stats (Dex, Know, Mech, Perc, Str, Tech) and in each you have a few skills that you can choose to improve as the game goes on, increasing the amount of d6 you use to determine your effectiveness.
Some things to watch out for= well different skills to focus in have different uses, and while you can make a character that can do anything some things will not be as useful as others (one player tried to use throwing knives only, and while useful in the beginning ran out of steam fast). Also, the game has a unique mix in the characters being too strong and too weak, or more accurately NPCs being too strong or two weak. Stormtroopers, for instance, are push overs as are every other troop type, named characters are insane. To do everything Darth Vader did in the movies would take a reasonable amount of time to get to that level, to actually take on Vader as presented would take many years to grind through. It's really best to slightly buff the troops and ignore the listed named characters completely.

[Satyr]

The D6 version is just much better than any of the D20 versions. This isn't even a challenge, just a mere fact. Sure, it has its problems - namely that it is out of print for a decade now, which makes it a bit hard to find both books and players and there is absolutely no official material covering the new trilogy or the likes - but from the rules alone, it's just plain better. There are a few hick-ups here and there like the number of dice you roll sometimes (when you use the force), but over all it is a very smooth and intuitive set of rules. Even though it is a much older game, it is also much more modern and has no atavisms and nostalgic relics like levels or classes, for example.

[Killer Angel]

I've played only the d6 version. Easy to learn and fun to play, so, at least, I can tell that you won't fail if you'll use that system.

[averagejoe]

I've only ever played the Revised Core rules, and know very little about any other SW rules system. Just so you know that I'm not comparing it to anything when I say the RCR is a pretty terrible system. It works, I guess, but there's so much pointless drek.

[LibraryOgre]

I ran a d6 (2e Revised and Expanded) for my D&D group last week. It took them a bit to get over the whole "There's no classes" thing, but once I gave them the idea that they needed, essentially, the Serenity crew (a couple bruisers, a mechanic, a pilot, and some specialists), they settled in and played great... and this is with a group that ranged in age from 8-30. We created characters and played an adventure with 6 players in one night.

[Siegel]

When you want to play SAGA there is a really great podcast out there on the D20 Radio Network

Order 66 : http://feeds.feedburner.com/order66

i highly recomend it (even if you don't play SAGA or even Star Wars)

[Dienekes]

These conversations seem to tend toward one group getting in early and claiming that their side is superior, of d6 or Saga. This one is looking like d6s (fair really, since last one I read was Saga). Personally, I suggest you look at both systems to see what interests you before making a decision. I've had lots of fun playing both, and would argue that any side claiming complete superiority is in the wrong. If money is tight or for some other reason can only get one, I'd suggest Saga, not because of superiority but because it can actually be found in bookstores or online due to not being out of print for a decade.

[Starshade]

I dont own SAGA but the 3.5 based one, but i assume from what ive heard, saga is just as ok. Its main advantage is it's only recently discontinued, so it might still be in stores. If I was to try get a new book for my 3.5 based edition, id need to find books out of print for 4-5 years or so, not easy. Same as starting playing 3.5 now. Used book marked.

[AstralFire]

The D6 version is just much better than any of the D20 versions. This isn't even a challenge, just a mere fact.

Opinion's pretty divided over the community. Saga is really good.

Guide to learning Star Wars Saga for D&D players.

Saga does borrow some ideas from 4E, but is mostly a late-3E framework with a bunch of new stuff tossed in.

Homebrew project for Saga.

[Superglucose]

Thank you. Depending on book availability I'm probably going to go with Saga.

[snoopy13a]

The D6 version is just much better than any of the D20 versions. This isn't even a challenge, just a mere fact. Sure, it has its problems - namely that it is out of print for a decade now, which makes it a bit hard to find both books and players and there is absolutely no official material covering the new trilogy or the likes - but from the rules alone, it's just plain better. There are a few hick-ups here and there like the number of dice you roll sometimes (when you use the force), but over all it is a very smooth and intuitive set of rules. Even though it is a much older game, it is also much more modern and has no atavisms and nostalgic relics like levels or classes, for example.

I loved playing the D6 Star Wars game.

However, I think the no level/class system could be jarring to people who were brought up on the D20 system. Additionally, D6 Star Wars was not intended to have balance between characters which seems to be a major concern for some D20 players. For example, two of the D6 Star Wars archtype* characters are a protocol droid and a pre-adolescent who are not meant to be stand toe to toe with the Wookiee and Bounty Hunter archtypes in combat. Instead, the protocol droid obviously brings translation skills to the party while I suppose the kid acts as comic relief

Plus, the damage system is different from the D20 system which could upset more traditional gamers. Overall, I personally prefer the D6 Star Wars to D20 games but it is very different.

* They don't have classes but they have archtypes so that newer players can generate characters easier. So they have a smuggler archtype (Han Solo type), a gambler archtype (Lando type), young force user (Luke type), along with a pilot archtype, pirate archtype, Ewok archtype, etc. More advanced players have the option of using an archtype or creating a character from scratch.

[Binks]

Saga does borrow some ideas from 4E, but is mostly a late-3E framework with a bunch of new stuff tossed in.

Wouldn't that be 4E borrows some ideas from Saga, since it came out a year earlier?

Fair warning, the d6 system is a bit harder to learn. I have the core rulebook for it but it's pretty hard to get into if you're used to a d20 system. If you've played d6 before you can probably pick it up relatively fast, otherwise it's far easier to learn (and get your hand on) saga books.

Also fair warning, saga's been discontinued, so every book that will be produced for it has been. No need to bother wondering if you want to play one that's not supported or not because no star wars rpg is currently supported (beyond upcoming errata for the books without errata).

[Bharg]

The Starwars Saga Edition really feels more like a modified version of 3E rather than 4E. Probably a good thing.
The only thing I am wondering about is if you actually could abuse the threshold and condition track to down your opponents more easily.

[Mando Knight]

Wouldn't that be 4E borrows some ideas from Saga, since it came out a year earlier?

Saga tested out some stuff they were planning for 4e. They were in development at about the same time.

However, Saga is mostly a modified d20 Modern/Future, not D&D. It uses the Talent system rather than a strict power/level progression like 4e or oddball "maybe you'll get class features this level, maybe not" progression of 3.5.

The only thing I am wondering about is if you actually could abuse the threshold and condition track to down your opponents more easily.

Yes. Condition Track abuse is the basis behind builds (IIRC) called CTKillers. Uses things like Devastating Attack or Force Powers to lower the Condition Track to the final stage, then easily kill the unconscious foe.

[Bharg]

[...]
Yes. Condition Track abuse is the basis behind builds (IIRC) called CTKillers. Uses things like Devastating Attack or Force Powers to lower the Condition Track to the final stage, then easily kill the unconscious foe.

Is there a fair way to prevent this without nerfing the poor assassins oo much?
I guess most moves down the ct is not permanent so you can at least spend some swist action to go up again. (3 swift action or only 2 with a feat in one or consecutive rounds)

My level 6 soldier is now armed with a Heavy Blaster and Devastating Attack... To beat a ~15 with 3d10+5 is not that hard I guss...

[Binks]

Is there a fair way to prevent this without nerfing the poor assassins oo much?
I guess most moves down the ct is not permanent so you can at least spend some swist action to go up again. (3 swift action or only 2 with a feat in one or consecutive rounds)

My level 6 soldier is now armed with a Heavy Blaster and Devastating Attack... To beat a ~15 with 3d10+5 is not that hard I guss...

Simple, if you see someone using Debilitating Shot and both the Bounty Hunter and Gunslinger PrCs in their build as well as wielding a stun blaster tell them no :P. Knocking someone one down the CT with each attack isn't much of a problem, it's the guys who can guarentee (even if they miss) 2 steps down and (if they hit and deal damage) 5 steps down (unconscious) that are the problem.

The only broken CT killer is the Scoundrel/Bounty Hunter/Gunslinger build that can instantly KO an opponent if they hit. Everyone else is just slowly wearing down opponents, which is fine.

(And 15 would mean they had a threshold of 20, which is reasonable for level 6, but you'll see higher when you get to higher levels, not to mention large creatures getting threshold bonuses and the like. A build based around overcoming threshold with damage isn't broken because it's easily blocked, it's the ones that KO irregardless of threshold that are broken).

[Bharg]

Simple, if you see someone using Debilitating Shot and both the Bounty Hunter and Gunslinger PrCs in their build as well as wielding a stun blaster tell them no :P. Knocking someone one down the CT with each attack isn't much of a problem, it's the guys who can guarentee (even if they miss) 2 steps down and (if they hit and deal damage) 5 steps down (unconscious) that are the problem.

The only broken CT killer is the Scoundrel/Bounty Hunter/Gunslinger build that can instantly KO an opponent if they hit. Everyone else is just slowly wearing down opponents, which is fine.

(And 15 would mean they had a threshold of 20, which is reasonable for level 6, but you'll see higher when you get to higher levels, not to mention large creatures getting threshold bonuses and the like. A build based around overcoming threshold with damage isn't broken because it's easily blocked, it's the ones that KO irregardless of threshold that are broken).

So even greater devastating attack is still balanced. Ooh, that's just fine.
I'm not sure if it's clever to let all those abilities stack though - like in the tainted built you described...

Hm, will the force also get more balanced if we reach a higher character level with the increasing defs? Our jedi (who was KIAed in the last session when picking on the wrong sith apprentice) had a force skill of like.... +16... because of training, focus et cetera...

[AstralFire]

Jedi are pretty balanced if they're not just shooting Offensive Force Powers all the time (which they shouldn't be, or Dark Side Points.) The link in my sig contains a homebrew project which has, among other things, balances for Force Powers at low levels.

[Bharg]

My soldier was force gripped a few times now what was quite troublesome...

Is it also legal that a jedi keeps blocking and reflecting blaster fire while he is fighting another force user with his lightsaber? Fighting them is really troublesome if you can only shoot once in a round... and if he has such a freakish skill modifier... and a good ref def...

[AstralFire]

Yes, it is. Block and Deflect are too strong at low levels and kind of boring as they presently are, if you ask me. Might make them a static bonus that lowers as they take multiple hits.

[Brock Samson]

While Block and Deflect can be quite powerful at lower levels, the fact that you take a -5 Use the Force check PER attempt means that after deflecting one or two blaster bolts, you'll definitely not be using a Force power on YOUR turn. And if you're just fighting one-on-one with another person, then yeah, you're a Jedi, you should be able to block and deflect when you're much less distracted.

[Gamgee]

Everything has been covered, so Ill just toss my vote in to Saga if it makes a difference.

[Optimator]

Saga Edition is probably the best system I've played. It's great.

[Jarveiyan]

I've only ever played RCR and Saga. I like Saga, however RCR will always get my vote.

[Zuki]

I've only ever played RCR and Saga. I like Saga, however RCR will always get my vote.

Could you elaborate on why?

[The J Pizzel]

SAGA is all that is good in table top roleplaying. /opinion

The cross-classing is extremely easy and allows for amazing customization. Every time we've played, we literally built character concepts way before the characters and then easily and effectively made exactly what we wanted. I aboslutely love SAGA.

And personally, I do feel it is alot like 4E. It targets Fort Reflex and Will defenses just like 4E; you train a certain amount of skills and get a static bonus to them; you add 1/2 level to skill checks, attack rolls, and damage; powers are refreshed per encounter (I know this was in ToB); it uses a -2, -5 pattern; death is difficult; etc.

I'm not saying their exactly the same, but personally I feel SAGA is more like 4E than 3.5, although that's just an opinion.

Regardless, I still say it's my favorite system. And I don't mean just my favorite Star Wars system, it's my favorite system of all.

All that being said, I hear WEG d6 game is absouletly amazing but I haven't ever played it.

[Platinum_Mongoose]

Saga Edition is probably the best system I've played. It's great.

What he said, aside from maybe Savage Worlds. It's more like Pathfinder than 4e. Doesn't have the... well, the horribleness of 4e.