Brains over Brawn

[Matamane]

What exactly does Brains over Brawn add your intelligence modifier to?

Specifically, do you add it to your attack rolls?

[Greenish]

Strength and Dexterity checks. An attack is not a strength check. Inititative is a dexterity check. Skills are (modified) ability checks.

[Edit]:

Brains Over Brawn (Ex): At 3rd level, add your Intelligence bonus as a modifier to Strength and Dexterity checks and all skill checks that are Strength and Dexterity related.

So you add it to ability checks and skill checks that key on those abilities.

[Mongoose87]

You add it to trip attempts!

[Matamane]

What about grapple checks?

What counts as a strength or dexterity check?

[Riffington]

What about grapple checks?

Nope, a grapple check involves strength but is not an ability or skill check.

What counts as a strength or dexterity check?

It says on the check that it is one. Typically, it'll look like "d20 + [attribute] + [special modifiers]" without including BAB or Caster Level or the like.

[Volthawk]

It says on the check that it is one. Typically, it'll look like "d20 + [attribute] + [special modifiers]" without including BAB or Caster Level or the like.

Initiative, for example.

[elonin]

That alone may make Factotem worthwhile in skill monkey or gish builds. Maybe I'm answering an unasked question but if you are using escape artist to you could use that.

Have I just seen a build that many others have seen before me? Factotem3/ swash3/scoutx?

[Mongoose87]

That alone may make Factotem worthwhile in skill monkey or gish builds. Maybe I'm answering an unasked question but if you are using escape artist to you could use that.

Have I just seen a build that many others have seen before me? Factotem3/ swash3/scoutx?

Why scout? Go with rogue, for Daring Outlaw.

But, yes, the 3-level factotum dip is very popular.

[Draz74]

Why scout? Go with rogue, for Daring Outlaw.

But, yes, the 3-level factotum dip is very popular.

The only reason it's less popular than it could be is that, once you have 3 levels, it's quite tempting to just keep taking Factotum levels and getting more cool abilities (at least up to the awesome Cunning Surge at level 8).

[Marriclay]

The only reason it's less popular than it could be is that, once you have 3 levels, it's quite tempting to just keep taking Factotum levels and getting more cool abilities (at least up to the awesome Cunning Surge at level 8).

I have to agree. extra standard actions? yes please!

[Pluto]

I have to agree. extra standard actions? yes please!

Hell, I'd take more Factotum levels just for Cunning Knowledge. The extra actions and spells are just gravy. Delicious delicious gravy.

[elonin]

Rogue and scout are interchangeable up to a point. I tend to prefer scout as qualifying for their extra damage is easier. And while it's not RAW many dm's that I've asked have allowed Daring outlaw to work with scout. Just wish that Factotum gave sneak attack progression or would stack with rogue/scout via feat.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I once had a DM who didn't allow my factotum to add his INT to Initiative checks using Brains over Brawn. I was like "Bwuh?" and pointed out the text that explicitly describes Initiative as a DEX check, and he was like "Bluh!" and vomited a stinking cloud of WRONG. My eyes melted from my skull, my bowels instantly evacuated, and now I have to type by smell.

[Defiant]

I once had a DM who didn't allow my factotum to add his INT to Initiative checks using Brains over Brawn. I was like "Bwuh?" and pointed out the text that explicitly describes Initiative as a DEX check, and he was like "Bluh!" and vomited a stinking cloud of WRONG. My eyes melted from my skull, my bowels instantly evacuated, and now I have to type by smell.

Charming...

[Draz74]

Meh, I actually think disallowing it on Initiative checks is a reasonable houserule (though certainly not one that I would enforce, as DM).

[Greenish]

Meh, I actually think disallowing it on Initiative checks is a reasonable houserule

On what grounds?

[Draz74]

On what grounds?

On the grounds of "I don't think whoever wrote the Brains Over Brawn ability actually realized that it would work on Initiative, or intended it to do so."

[Person_Man]

On the grounds of "I don't think whoever wrote the Brains Over Brawn ability actually realized that it would work on Initiative, or intended it to do so."

IIRC, Rich Burlew co-wrote Dungeonscape. You could always PM him and ask.

Also, Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip, and Grapple are all Str checks. For this reason, Factotum (or Marshals) can make excellent low level melee builds. See Haberdash. At higher levels, Size bonuses and other buffs tend to be more important, giving the Psychic Warrior or CoDzilla a clear edge.

[Optimystik]

Charming...

What did you expect from a guy named CockroachTeaParty?

On the grounds of "I don't think whoever wrote the Brains Over Brawn ability actually realized that it would work on Initiative, or intended it to do so."

Both Dex and Int should work with Initiative, imo, just like they do with Reflex in 4e.

[Murdim]

On what grounds?

On the grounds of it not being an outrageously excessive nerf, for one of the stronger classes outside of full spellcasters. Like Draz74, I do not agree with this houserule, its intents nor its spirit, but I wouldn't say it is outright "unreasonable".

Also, Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip, and Grapple are all Str checks.

Actually, a Grapple check isn't a Strength check at all, but a modified Base attack bonus check, like an attack roll.

[Draz74]

IIRC, Rich Burlew co-wrote Dungeonscape. You could always PM him and ask.

He did, but he's also gone on the record stating that the Factotum was mostly (or entirely) the work of the book's other author.

Both Dex and Int should work with Initiative, imo, just like they do with Reflex in 4e.

Hmmm, I'm in favor of characters actually having weaknesses, and thus in MAD for all characters. So the combining of pairs of ability scores for Fort/Ref/Will is not one of my favorite design elements in 4e.

Interestingly, even in 4e, Initiative is a Dexterity check, not an Intelligence check. I think there's a feat that lets you switch it to Wisdom, but I think it's only for Fighters and Rangers or something.

[Optimystik]

He did, but he's also gone on the record stating that the Factotum was mostly (or entirely) the work of the book's other author.

Source?

Interestingly, even in 4e, Initiative is a Dexterity check, not an Intelligence check. I think there's a feat that lets you switch it to Wisdom, but I think it's only for Fighters and Rangers or something.

Point - but then, if a feat can switch it to Wis, one should be able to switch it to Int, imo.

On the grounds of it not being an outrageously excessive nerf, for one of the stronger classes outside of full spellcasters. Like Draz74, I do not agree with this houserule, its intents nor its spirit, but I wouldn't say it is outright "unreasonable".

Actually, Draz's position is the houserule. RAW is that BoB applies Int to Initiative.

[Draz74]

Source?

These forums, a long time ago. Probably wiped out by the Thread Purge.

Actually, Draz's position is the houserule. RAW is that BoB applies Int to Initiative.

Um. You need to re-read my post more carefully.

Murdim is quite accurate: I have agreed all along that BoB applies to Initiative by RAW, and furthermore have stated that I, as DM, would approve such application. I just wouldn't violently object if I played under a DM who houseruled otherwise.

[Optimystik]

Um. You need to re-read my post more carefully.

Murdim is quite accurate: I have agreed all along that BoB applies to Initiative by RAW, and furthermore have stated that I, as DM, would approve such application. I just wouldn't violently object if I played under a DM who houseruled otherwise.

I worded that badly. I didn't mean to imply that you disagreed with RAW, just that you had no problems with the houserule. (I shouldn't have labelled it "your position.")

So just relax get some catnip

[Murdim]

I worded that badly. I didn't mean to imply that you disagreed with RAW, just that you had no problems with the houserule. (I shouldn't have labelled it "your position.")

So just relax get some catnip

My bad for the misunderstanding, I suppose. Me tell not language of english much good that's because my isn't a speaker of native.

[sofawall]

Source?

No idea, but I remember it too.

[Optimystik]

No idea, but I remember it too.

I'm not saying I disbelieve it, but context and wording are important, especially when citing Rich. I'd love to read that post myself.

[strider24seven]

Brains over Brawn is, IMO, the Factotum's most powerful ability without spending every single feat on Font of Inspiration. Simply because it opens up so many options with INT to every single STR and DEX check you ever make post level 3. It is what makes a Factotum dip awesome in non-gestalt games (in gestalt, you take 8-11 levels on any caster for Surge and Breach).

My favorite low-level (1-10) build was a Goliath Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6 with Fractional BAB and LA Buyoff and 40 pt buy. He was, in all honesty, the best battlefield controller I have ever used at those levels. I ran him with a spiked chain and abused my stupidly high Trip and Bullrush attempts with Shock Trooper, Knockback, and Dungeoncrasher to smash enemies into things. Actually, the other Fighter in the party set up his Tower Shield specifically so that I could bash enemies into it. To kill the BBEG, I bullrushed him into the party wizard (she was the only one nearby) so that I could get an extra attack from Improved Trip. I opted to deal non-lethal damage to the wizard of course. If it had been the Druid, on the other hand...

The point of that anecdote was to showcase the awesome-sauce that is Brains over Brawn. And how a 3/4 BAB class can rule at close combat with the often-neglected (at least in my games) Trip and Bullrush.

[Draz74]

So just relax get some catnip

Yeah, apology accepted, and sorry for getting prickly there.