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Thread: Brains over Brawn
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2010-05-31, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Brains over Brawn
What exactly does Brains over Brawn add your intelligence modifier to?
Specifically, do you add it to your attack rolls?
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2010-05-31, 07:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
Strength and Dexterity checks. An attack is not a strength check. Inititative is a dexterity check. Skills are (modified) ability checks.
[Edit]:Brains Over Brawn (Ex): At 3rd level, add your Intelligence bonus as a modifier to Strength and Dexterity checks and all skill checks that are Strength and Dexterity related.Last edited by Greenish; 2010-05-31 at 07:52 AM.
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2010-05-31, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-05-31, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
What about grapple checks?
What counts as a strength or dexterity check?
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2010-05-31, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
Nope, a grapple check involves strength but is not an ability or skill check.
What counts as a strength or dexterity check?
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2010-05-31, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-05-31, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-05-31, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-05-31, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
You can call me Draz.
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2010-05-31, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-05-31, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-05-31, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
Rogue and scout are interchangeable up to a point. I tend to prefer scout as qualifying for their extra damage is easier. And while it's not RAW many dm's that I've asked have allowed Daring outlaw to work with scout. Just wish that Factotum gave sneak attack progression or would stack with rogue/scout via feat.
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2010-05-31, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
I once had a DM who didn't allow my factotum to add his INT to Initiative checks using Brains over Brawn. I was like "Bwuh?" and pointed out the text that explicitly describes Initiative as a DEX check, and he was like "Bluh!" and vomited a stinking cloud of WRONG. My eyes melted from my skull, my bowels instantly evacuated, and now I have to type by smell.
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2010-05-31, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-05-31, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
Meh, I actually think disallowing it on Initiative checks is a reasonable houserule (though certainly not one that I would enforce, as DM).
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2010-06-01, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-06-01, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2010-06-01, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
IIRC, Rich Burlew co-wrote Dungeonscape. You could always PM him and ask.
Also, Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip, and Grapple are all Str checks. For this reason, Factotum (or Marshals) can make excellent low level melee builds. See Haberdash. At higher levels, Size bonuses and other buffs tend to be more important, giving the Psychic Warrior or CoDzilla a clear edge.
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2010-06-01, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-01, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
On the grounds of it not being an outrageously excessive nerf, for one of the stronger classes outside of full spellcasters. Like Draz74, I do not agree with this houserule, its intents nor its spirit, but I wouldn't say it is outright "unreasonable".
Actually, a Grapple check isn't a Strength check at all, but a modified Base attack bonus check, like an attack roll.
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2010-06-01, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
He did, but he's also gone on the record stating that the Factotum was mostly (or entirely) the work of the book's other author.
Hmmm, I'm in favor of characters actually having weaknesses, and thus in MAD for all characters. So the combining of pairs of ability scores for Fort/Ref/Will is not one of my favorite design elements in 4e.
Interestingly, even in 4e, Initiative is a Dexterity check, not an Intelligence check. I think there's a feat that lets you switch it to Wisdom, but I think it's only for Fighters and Rangers or something.Last edited by Draz74; 2010-06-01 at 01:44 PM.
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2010-06-01, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
Last edited by Optimystik; 2010-06-01 at 01:53 PM.
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2010-06-01, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
These forums, a long time ago. Probably wiped out by the Thread Purge.
Actually, Draz's position is the houserule. RAW is that BoB applies Int to Initiative.
Murdim is quite accurate: I have agreed all along that BoB applies to Initiative by RAW, and furthermore have stated that I, as DM, would approve such application. I just wouldn't violently object if I played under a DM who houseruled otherwise.You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2010-06-01, 02:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-01, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-01, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-01, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-01, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
Brains over Brawn is, IMO, the Factotum's most powerful ability without spending every single feat on Font of Inspiration. Simply because it opens up so many options with INT to every single STR and DEX check you ever make post level 3. It is what makes a Factotum dip awesome in non-gestalt games (in gestalt, you take 8-11 levels on any caster for Surge and Breach).
My favorite low-level (1-10) build was a Goliath Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6 with Fractional BAB and LA Buyoff and 40 pt buy. He was, in all honesty, the best battlefield controller I have ever used at those levels. I ran him with a spiked chain and abused my stupidly high Trip and Bullrush attempts with Shock Trooper, Knockback, and Dungeoncrasher to smash enemies into things. Actually, the other Fighter in the party set up his Tower Shield specifically so that I could bash enemies into it. To kill the BBEG, I bullrushed him into the party wizard (she was the only one nearby) so that I could get an extra attack from Improved Trip. I opted to deal non-lethal damage to the wizard of course. If it had been the Druid, on the other hand...
The point of that anecdote was to showcase the awesome-sauce that is Brains over Brawn. And how a 3/4 BAB class can rule at close combat with the often-neglected (at least in my games) Trip and Bullrush.
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2010-06-01, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Brains over Brawn
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.