New Gestalt character (3.x/Pathfinder)

[onthetown]

Hey guys.

I have an idea for a new character, and I've decided to go with a gestalt. I want to actually try my hand optimizing for once (something I really haven't done before) so I know you'll all have awesome advice for the best combinations, spells, feats, etc.

I'm trying to aim for an arcane/divine character.

The character: Charismatic, has strong opinions and isn't afraid to voice them, hopelessly faithful to her god; I'm thinking Lathander, because she specializes in firey spells of doom. Rigidly lawful good (but not stupid) or neutral alignment, unless we can find a lawful evil deity that represents some aspect of fire or the sun or something similar. She smites all who oppose her and then burns them to a crisp.

The campaign setting isn't a restriction; I'm not sure when I'll get to use her, and we jump all over the place anyway. So gods from any world will work. I'm only really familiar with Dragonlance and a bit of Forgotten Realms.

That's all I have on her right now, as she's really just a concept. I'm leaning toward Sorcerer/Cleric, but I tend to hate playing Sorcerers compared to Wizards... That said, I don't think a Wizard really fits with her personality.

So... A gestalt that fits her; arcane/divine if possible for all the firey doom spells; and a way to pull it off, if I'm going with Sorcerer, that makes the class a little more flexible.

Any ideas for anything are welcome.

A little extra inspiration? After reading the Pretentious Latin Mottos thread, I came up with one for her that I think wraps up the character in a nutshell: "Ignis et fides," which means, "Fire and faith."

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Warmage // Favored Soul would be a good start for your classes. The Favored Soul class spell list is cleric spells, and you get a ton of bonus features, full saves for everything. The only thing that is going to really suck are your HP (d8's) and your BAB; but since you are going for horrid flamey smites, then yeah, that is not going to matter much.

Warmage idea will be stomped on, beaten down, smashed, wrecked, obliterated, and generally frowned upon on these boards, but I think it fits with you concept.

Lathander does not exist in Pathfinder. You may want to looksee at Sarenrae. Personal favorite of mine. Sarenrae is more Chaotic, though. Shelyn would be a fun deity to be a Cleric for.

[onthetown]

We're not using the Pathfinder campaign setting -- we're using combined 3.x and Pathfinder rules, and we skip around to tons of different settings depending on the session. As I said, setting isn't an issue for gods.

But what book is Favored Soul in?

[Greenish]

But what book is Favored Soul in?

Complete Divine. It's a spontaneous cleric with a few class features.

I'd go with Beguiler//Archivist. The latter can most likely supply "fire", and the former is just awesome.

Nevermind, sorcerer//favoured soul sounds about right.

[Edit]: Ha! Sorcerer//Spirit Shaman (with spell thematics). You get good nukes and utility spells on both sides, and Spirit Shamans can re-select their spells known each day.

[imperialspectre]

Lol. "Trying one's hand at optimization" and "warmage" don't fit, except for Rainbow Warsnakes. More on those to follow.

Also, you don't need to worry about Sorcerer flexibility in gestalt, because you have a whole other class progression to get more flexibility.

A couple general ground rules for blasting as a spellcaster will probably help you a lot here.

First, if you're going to blast, you should generally be an arcanist or a psion - and at higher levels of optimization, arcanists are much more effective blasters than psions are. I only know of one successful divine blasting build, built by Doc Roc and me a few months ago, and it relied on Streamers, which is a horribly broken spell that has nothing to do with fire. And there's absolutely nothing preventing an arcane caster from being just as devoted to a deity as a divine caster, so don't worry about that.

Second, the PHB blasting spells are crap. You're not going to be able to accomplish much by just casting Fireball (this is another point against Warmage, because most of Warmage's blasting spells come from the PHB and are therefore bad). The path to effective blasting lies in increasing caster level (so that you get the most out of your damage caps), accessing cheap metamagic (so that you get more out of a single spell), increasing the number of actions you can use (so that you can cast more spells), or some combination of the three.

Third, blasting is a really risky thing to optimize because damage is binary. You either deal enough damage to one-shot someone, or you risk being disabled or killed before your next turn. This means that if you're going to rely on blasting, you need to either add disables to your damage (so that an enemy who isn't one-shotted can't retaliate), build your defenses up to the point that retaliation is generally pointless, or optimize blasting to the point that you can wipe out enemies with one turn's worth of actions. The last option gets you a lot of impressive numbers, but DMs and other players don't tend to like it because instead of functionally ending a fight (with a Glitterdust or Stinking Cloud, which lets your teammates act and rack up the damage for themselves), you're just ending the fight (and not letting anyone else do fun things).

So, with all of these things in mind, there are a few ways to build a strong blaster. With the constraints that you're working under, we can basically get rid of the options that are based on being a wizard. That's fine, it helps us focus on the stuff you really want.

First off, there's Warmage. Warmage sucks. However, Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10 is awesome, because you can spontaneously cast off of a spell list that has all warmage spells (meh) and every spell on the cleric spell list (wow). Rainbow Servant either grants 6/10 casting (according to the table) or 10/10 casting (according to the written class features) - by RAW, text trumps table, so you get 10/10 arcane casting with every spell on the cleric list. You will, however, need to be a human or use flaws to pull this off, because you need 2 feats to get the early entry into Rainbow Servant.

A typical blasting build based on Rainbow Servant would be Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Halruaan Elder 8/Archmage 1. A good "other side" of this progression in gestalt might be Bard 20 (skills, better BAB, Charisma synergy), Dread Necromancer 20 (Charisma synergy, lots of minions to take hits for you), Sorcerer 20 (Charisma synergy, gives you access to good defensive spells), or Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 (Charisma synergy, defensive spells, and rofltastic saves).

To be more party-friendly, you could go Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/War Weaver 5/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4. This combination lets you share practically all buff spells (or all buff spells, with hax) below spell level 5 with all of your allies, and gives you buffs from the cleric list. In so doing, you would obviously want Sorcerer 20 for your blasting and for arcane defensive spells (like greater mirror image).

Now, you can obviously choose not to go Warmage. Dread Necromancer is just as good with Rainbow Servant, and you can totally be Lawful Neutral and pull it off. This gives you all of the cleric buffs, nice Charisma synergy, and lots of minions, but leaves you pretty much empty in terms of blasting. In this case, you're going to want to go Sorcerer to get your damage spells.

Finally, if you don't want to go Rainbow Servant, Sorcerer//Cloistered Cleric (with Dynamic Priest as a feat, switching your Wisdom-based casting to Charisma-based casting, except with Wisdom for DCs) is probably your best bet. In this case, you'll put all of the prestige classing on the Sorcerer side of things - for blasting, I would go Sorcerer 5/Incantatrix 10/Halruaan Elder 5. You'll want Arcane Thesis in your favorite blasting spell, and a bunch of metamagic to make the spell more powerful. Don't worry about Wisdom, because you won't cast cleric spells with DCs, just cleric buffs. Instead, pump Charisma and Intelligence, and Persist cleric buffs on yourself.

[Gelscressor]

When it comes to Deities, there's also Amaunator. He's a LN Netherese Sun god and...also happens to be dead. Regardless! There are rules for worshipping Dead Deities. Either talk with your GM about it and/or look in Lost Empires of Faerun. There's also Kossuth and Horus-Re, but the latter is LG.

...And while not really a deity per see, you could also go with Mephistopheles. However, short of Mephistopheles being associated with fire; I don't think it's thematically much of a fit for the rest.

There's also a large list of gods /somewhere/ on Planewalker.com , but I appeared to have failed my search check for it; so I can't link you.

[gallagher]

what about favored soul and bard? good skills, saves, charismatic as heck, knows everything, and can cast glibness to get yourself out of trouble. have your whip cast your touch spells and trip them!

not the most optimized, but certainly fun!

[Greenish]

have your whip cast your touch spells and trip them!

You'll need to dip into something to channel your spells through the whip.

[gallagher]

You'll need to dip into something to channel your spells through the whip.

for comedy's sake, it is definitely worth it to dip for whip.

on a related note, if he wanted to then go pyromancer so he has a whip aflame, which seems what his character would want to do for the fiery fire-ness, would he still be able to cast his touch spells through the fire whip?

even if not, pyromancer is right up the OP's alley

[Greenish]

on a related note, if he wanted to then go pyromancer so he has a whip aflame, which seems what his character would want to do for the fiery fire-ness, would he still be able to cast his touch spells through the fire whip?

If he can channel spells through a weapon, he can channel spells through a weapon. Pyrokineticist's flame whip is a weapon.

[gallagher]

If he can channel spells through a weapon, he can channel spells through a weapon. Pyrokineticist's flame whip is a weapon.

YAY

the yay there reminded me of thog and the rocket skates in the master plan.

but seriously, this idea looks like it is what you are looking for. get some arcane value from being a bard, you have UMD and the skills to abuse it, you get a fire whip, and you get your divine spells and good saves. now all you need is wings.

oh wait, they have items and spells for that? items you can buy and spells you can umd? looks like your problems are solved

[Gnaeus]

If on line sources are available, check out the advanced players guide playtest in the Pathfinder SRD. Oracle is similar to the Favored Soul, but generally better. Alchemist might be interesting if your idea of fiery spells of doom extends to making bombs and throwing fiery doom. Witch has very few fiery spells, but makes up for it with extra doom.

[Greenish]

but seriously, this idea looks like it is what you are looking for. get some arcane value from being a bard, you have UMD and the skills to abuse it, you get a fire whip, and you get your divine spells and good saves. now all you need is wings a way to channel spells through weapons.

Favoured Souls get wings. Too late, but still.

[Gnaeus]

Favoured Souls get wings. Too late, but still.

Oracles with the Flame mystery get flaming wings as early as 7th, a set of fire spells added to spells known, free metamagic on fire spells, their fire spells set people on fire, and other fire themed bonuses.

[onthetown]

on a related note, if he wanted to then go pyromancer so he has a whip aflame, which seems what his character would want to do for the fiery fire-ness, would he still be able to cast his touch spells through the fire whip?

even if not, pyromancer is right up the OP's alley

It looks like I'll have to dip into a class that changes my gender first.

All joking aside, I do like the whip as my weapon idea, especially if it were firey and doomy like my spells.

I'm not really liking Favoured Soul right now because of the lack of spells you can choose; then again, when dealing with spontaneous casters, what else is new. A Cleric with Fire domain might be just as good for some extra firey doomy spells apart from what the arcane class will cover... I've looked over and over Favoured Soul and I really just don't see why people like it so much. To each their own.

Somebody once mentioned some process by which gestalts have to take their prestige classes, something where they always have to be gestalting... It makes sense but my DM and I have a hard time understanding it. He hasn't let me take prestige classes with a gestalt character in the past, so I don't think he'll start now. It takes away a lot of options, so that's why I'm trying to choose two really awesome base classes for the character before I ever write up her sheets.

I appear to have lost my Sandstorm book; I'll get to finding it tonight, but are there any classes in there that stand out?

When you say Spirit Shamen can reselect their spells known for each day, do you mean they can rearrange their prepared spells or that they can rearrange their entire spell list? I'm trying to find what book the class might be in but all I'm getting is regular Shaman with Google searches.

I'm going to have to agree with the general concensus and say that Warmage sucks. I've given it a shot before.

Cloistered Cleric would be great if it got a few more additions to the class, but I already have a Bard for Bardic Knowledge and those particular additional spells aren't really what I'm looking for with this character.

I am loving the Oracle idea. Firey wings of doom.

I'm missing my old LE character, so I think I might ask the DM if I can have this gal serve an archdevil instead of a deity. There are very few evil deities that I found in my setting books that came close to being firey and doomy.

Sorry for the long post, just trying to cover everybody's ideas.

Edit: Right now, I've come to Oracle/Sorcerer with the Flame mystery and Infernal bloodline. She'll be able to worship Asmodeus by Pathfinder rules. I'm still not sure if it's a great choice, but there's always tons of feats and add-ons for the character if she starts to suck.

[gallagher]

woops, sorry about the gender confusion! if you need an item that will change gender, might i suggest a pair of freudian slippers?

and one last suggestion i would say is shugenja/bard. bard for the knowledge, whip and some spellcasting, and shugenja does thematic divine casting. make your theme fire, and tada, your fire is ready to fire

and seriously ask about pyromancer, as that is probably going to give your character its most heat.

other than that, try for a hellfire eldritch glaive warlock. gestalt with a cleric. at level 12, you should be able to cast divine strength and righteous might. you are now a better fighter than your party fighter, hit on touch AC, and deal alot of damage.

in your spare time, heal your ability damage, because you are still a cleric

[Greenish]

It looks like I'll have to dip into a class that changes my gender first.

It's hardly his fault that the English language is stuck with the curious case of gendered pronouns.

All joking aside, I do like the whip as my weapon idea, especially if it were firey and doomy like my spells.

I believe Gallagher is advocating for Pyrokineticist, which is a (mildly) psionic prestige class. It has fire, but not a lot anything else.

I'm not really liking Favoured Soul right now because of the lack of spells you can choose; then again, when dealing with spontaneous casters, what else is new. A Cleric with Fire domain might be just as good for some extra firey doomy spells apart from what the arcane class will cover... I've looked over and over Favoured Soul and I really just don't see why people like it so much. To each their own.

I haven't seen too many people proclaim their love for favoured soul. It's mentioned since it keys it's spellcasting (mostly) on charisma, which goes nicely with sorcerer.

I appear to have lost my Sandstorm book; I'll get to finding it tonight, but are there any classes in there that stand out?

Sandshaper is handy for a sorcerer, Walker of the Wastes turns you into Dry Lich, which is an upgraded version of a normal lich offset with weaksauce weakness. Both are prestige classes though. Prestige classes work in gestalt like they do in normal game, but dual progression ones (like Mystic Theurge) are forbidden/discouraged.

When you say Spirit Shamen can reselect their spells known for each day, do you mean they can rearrange their prepared spells or that they can rearrange their entire spell list? I'm trying to find what book the class might be in but all I'm getting is regular Shaman with Google searches.

Pet peeve:

Spoiler

Show

"Shaman" is a loanword from Evenki, and the "-man" in the end does not refer to the English word "man", so the proper plural is either "shaman" or "shamans".

Spirit Shamans are spontaneous casters who select their spells known from the druid list. They're unique in that they can reselect their "spells known" each day. Crystal Keep is a good reference to many things, including Spirit Shamans.

[onthetown]

Do the slippers come cursed, or do I have to have that added? It's nice to spare some expense where you can, especially if I like it.

My head is still swimming from all these suggestions, so I'm still looking over all the classes and prestige classes carefully. I am going to see if I can get him to allow PrCs, since I really don't agree with, "I don't understand it, and even if you could explain it to me I'm not going to allow it because I can't understand it in the first place."

But I can buy a flaming whip.

[gallagher]

Do the slippers come cursed, or do I have to have that added? It's nice to spare some expense where you can, especially if I like it.

My head is still swimming from all these suggestions, so I'm still looking over all the classes and prestige classes carefully. I am going to see if I can get him to allow PrCs, since I really don't agree with, "I don't understand it, and even if you could explain it to me I'm not going to allow it because I can't understand it in the first place."

But I can buy a flaming whip.

Pyromancer is in either expanded psionics handbok or complete psionics. forget which, but take a good look at it. see if it fits the flavor you like.

and freudian slippers cost less than 1000 gp according to munchkin. see if your dm will go after that.

and take your time picking prestige classes. find what you want to focus on, and then just emphasize that in your build.

you like fire, so it is only fitting that you should have the following: fire spells, fire attacks for melee if you do that, fire resistance, and some handy tricks like heat metal for fighters who get too close, a few potions of dragons breath for close range casters who dont have evasion and didnt optimize their dex, some fire defenses like a wall of flame, and see if you can find a way to get if someone touches you they are subject to fire damage, cuz you love fire so much your blood is actually boiling