[3.5]Choosing Conjuration as Forbidden Spellschool

[Rannil]

So I was going for a Shadow craft wizard, starting with 'Gnome Illusionist', 'Focused Specialist' and 'Specialist Wizard'. And that is going to start with a heavy penalty. I have to choose 3 forbidden spell school and take a -1 caster level penalty on one, chosen out of evocation, transmutation, or conjuration.

Normal forbidden wizards choices are Evocation, Enchantment and either Necromancy or Abjuration. But Necromancy would be a thematically fitting "Back up" school and Abjuration is the protective school.

At the other side as a Shadow craft I will be able to "fake" Conjuration(Summoning) and Conjuration(Creating) (and evocation for that matter). I wonder if taking Conjuration as forbidden school is better then Abjuration/Necromancy. I will never be able to cast Conjuration(teleporting) (and Conjuration(calling)) but I will have both Abjuration and Necromancy in full glory.

The troubles with that is that is in the earlier levels (until level 7) I have no conjuration (and the mentioned no access to teleporting) at all. Also due 'Gnome Illusionist' I am "forced" to take a -1 caster level on Transmutation, another school that people told me is quite powerful. Otherwise Conjuration would end up with the -1 penalty.

Is that worth to get full access to either Necromancy or Abjuration?

Also wondering, what would happen if you take all three (evocation, transmutation and conjuration) as forbidden schools. I guess that would end up "DM-ruling"?

Thanks in advance.

[Gnaeus]

I think shadow conjuration is SR: yes. One reason that conjuration beats evocation is that it has many offensive SR:no options.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The real power behind Conjuration is to get through AMFs with instantaneous, SR: No spells. Even the best Illusions still turn that "SR: No" into a "Yes," which can cause some problems, depending on how things go in your campaign.

My personal vote is to dump Necromancy. You lose enervation, shivering touch, and permanent minions, but there is a ton of redundancy in the school. As for those few gems, you can regain them via a feat in Lost Empires of Fearun.

As for the caster level penalty, due to the existence of such a feat, it would appear you can apply the penalty to a banned school, unless, of course, the source material says otherwise.

[Marriclay]

of course, if you have the availability of spells like assay resistance and feats like greater spell penetration, it becomes a whole lot easier. still, no check is better than making an almost guaranteed check

[dextercorvia]

Also wondering, what would happen if you take all three (evocation, transmutation and conjuration) as forbidden schools. I guess that would end up "DM-ruling"?

I'm fairly certain that you would then only suffer the -1 caster level if you manged to cast the spells from another spell list (by multiclassing or whatever). However, giving up conjuration AND transmutation would be painful. My guess is that there aren't that many abjurations that you would miss. Giving up magic circle<giving up calling and teleportation. The resistance line in good though.

[aivanther]

My first thought is blasphemy for banning conjuration!

My second thought it, can you really make yourself comfortable in your casting with 3 illusions spell slots for every spell level?

Necromancy is sort of yes or no depending upon your perspective. Necromancy is an fun debuffing school. My personal favorite isn't enervation (too cheesy in it's abusability) but waves of fatigue.

Abjuration's one big reason to keep is dispel magic (which can be a very good reason). Do you want to dispel things really bad? If not, let your party CoDzilla do it.

Transmutation is quite a school, with a long list of potentialities. I have a hard time giving up things like Enlarge Person, Fly, Haste, Rope Trick, Disintegrate and Time Stop. They're just to bread and butter for me.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Shadow Conjuration can not duplicate, teleportation or calling ever both of which are fairly useful not to mention ignoring SR with say an orb spell or simple stinking cloud. So I'm going to side with others and say give up necromancy as your 3rd school. Necromancy, Evocation and Enchantment are your best bet. *Dispel magic is abjuration!*
Now the gnome illusionist ability requires it be from a school you can cast. Unlike say the penalties from shadow weave magic.

My first thought is blasphemy for banning conjuration!

My second thought it, can you really make yourself comfortable in your casting with 3 illusions spell slots for every spell level?

He's playing a shadowgnome killer build, he'll be able to fill those slots with heighten figments then turn those into shadow evocations/conjurations which are 10•X% real with X being the level of the figment and able to duplicate a spell of below its level.

So a 5th level slot is 50% real and can duplicate any evocation or conjuration{summon/creation] spell of 4th level or lower.

Not accounting for bonuses to the reality percentage from a feat, PrC levels and the earth spell feat that make the heighten spell count as one level higher.[also meaning the 5th level slot can duplicate a 5th level spell.

So yes he'll be very comfortable.

[ScionoftheVoid]

I'm fairly certain that you would then only suffer the -1 caster level if you manged to cast the spells from another spell list (by multiclassing or whatever). However, giving up conjuration AND transmutation would be painful. My guess is that there aren't that many abjurations that you would miss. Giving up magic circle<giving up calling and teleportation. The resistance line in good though.

Dispel Magic is in Abjuration. That's one of the main reasons to not ban it, its defenses are generally of about the same potency as those in the Illusion school (and are sometimes less powerful).

Edit: Ninja'd, twice. Why must ninjas always come to me in pairs?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

My first thought is blasphemy for banning conjuration!

My second thought it, can you really make yourself comfortable in your casting with 3 illusions spell slots for every spell level?

If the character is going to be a Shadowcraft Mage, those 3 illusion spells are some form of Silent Image. Or, in this case, the entire evocation school and parts of the conjuration school of that spell level or lower.

[Rannil]

Lot's of replies. Yay!

First off: Spell Resistance.
I kinda forgot it, but yes every cast of shadow evocation/conjuration have a SR. I do get some bonus on spell penetration and my GM doesn't use that many SR in our current campaign. It still is valid reason to keep Conjuration as a back up. Thanks for reminding me of that one.

Still keeps the second question. The -1 penalty. Should it go on Transmutation or Conjuration? I do think I end up using a lot Conjuration now I think if it. The build is made around being able to case one spell (silent image) spontaneous and with that one be able to cast two schools of magic. Still a "normal grease" would always be better then a "shadow grease". It is still nice to turn that "normal grease" into something else(edit: like a summon) if the situation needed it.

Also forgot that dispel is Abjuration and I am not sure if my new group has a cleric or not. I think I also keep it on standby. Wasn't identify also abjuration?
Edit: (Where is my Handbook... I guess you guys reply faster then the time it takes me to find it.) (It's divination, now i am confusing everything with anything! )

I also think my GM loves it if I would ban Necromancy. She played 2.0/2.5 and Necromancy was the opposite school of Illusions if I remember correctly. But it just feels "right" to be a shadow illusionist with same necromantic powers. Owh well sacrifices have to made.

As for "Gnome Illusionist":

In exchange for this benefit, a gnome illusionist must choose one of the following schools of magic from which she can cast spells (in other words, one that she has not given up access to as the price for specializing in illusion): evocation, transmutation, or conjuration.

It almost sounds like the "focused specialist banned school" still technically functions as candidate for the -1 penalty. Dunno if I go for that. Vague reading of RAW ftw.

[Lord Vukodlak]

No its not a candidate there are PrC that increase your specialization and force you to give up another school.
"a gnome illusionist must choose one of the following schools of magic from which she can cast spells"

You must be able to cast spells from that school period. The following text is for clarification it doesn't supersede the previous text. The text says it has to be from a school which you can cast spells period.

That being said I don't think it matters much, off hand I'd say conjuration and the only reason I say that is the shadow weave magic feat which gives a penalty to evocation and transmutation. So if you take that feat later its not a -2 on one school. That feat does not require you be able to cast spells from the given schools.

[PId6]

Take Practiced Spellcaster and you can basically ignore any penalties to CL.

[Endarire]

Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy are the favorite dropped schools for specialists. Conjuration spells can do anything, if only by summoning or calling a creature to do this anything for you.

[Il_Vec]

Take Practiced Spellcaster and you can basically ignore any penalties to CL.

Any penalties up to -4, not relevant in this case.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Any penalties up to -4, not relevant in this case.

I don't think -1 in one school is quite bad enough to warrant taking that feat either.

[Rannil]

I don't think -1 in one school is quite bad enough to warrant taking that feat either.

Yeah it only hurts on the first level anyways, then you can't cast spells of that school. Beyond that it is just a annoyance. Not feat worthy annoyance.

No its not a candidate there are PrC that increase your specialization and force you to give up another school.
"a gnome illusionist must choose one of the following schools of magic from which she can cast spells"

You must be able to cast spells from that school period. The following text is for clarification it doesn't supersede the previous text. The text says it has to be from a school which you can cast spells period.

That being said I don't think it matters much, off hand I'd say conjuration and the only reason I say that is the shadow weave magic feat which gives a penalty to evocation and transmutation. So if you take that feat later its not a -2 on one school. That feat does not require you be able to cast spells from the given schools.

I really should go for Shadow Weave, showing devotions by tons(well 5 of the 8) of forbidden and penalized spell schools.

[Optimystik]

Find out if your group has a cleric - if so, Abjuration should be a safe drop.

[Morty]

If you find it thematically fitting, I say go for it. Your character will be weaker but not by any means crippled, since you still have the useful spells from all other schools.

[gbprime]

And honestly, missing out on Teleportation is no big deal. Sure, the "shuffle your party around during the fight" spells are neat, but you can get by without them. Teleport is just a way to get from point A to point B, and there are lots of ways to do that. Besides, a party of 5 or 6 PC's can rarely all travel in one teleport spell anyway, as you need a big caster level to pull it off.

And I prefer Shadow Walk to Teleport anyway. Chance to earn XP on the way.

[Optimystik]

And I prefer Shadow Walk to Teleport anyway. Chance to earn XP on the way.

Ugh, I'll pass. About the only nice thing about Shadow Walk is that it can double as a ghetto Plane Shift. The transit time, the chance of running into very scary and very hungry natives (which itself can lead to losing party members in the Plane), and the uselessness for recon are big turnoffs. To cap it all, you can't even guarantee you'll come out where you were aiming.

[Morty]

Ugh, I'll pass. About the only nice thing about Shadow Walk is that it can double as a ghetto Plane Shift. The transit time, the chance of running into very scary and very hungry natives (which itself can lead to losing party members in the Plane), and the uselessness for recon are big turnoffs. To cap it all, you can't even guarantee you'll come out where you were aiming.

Maybe I'm weird, but I'd prefer something like this, although with less extreme risks involved perhaps, as the only teleport option. This way, teleportation would become something you use in an emergency - as in, "sure it's risky but we've got to get there quick" - rather than something you use because you don't feel like walking or riding.

[Rannil]

Maybe I'm weird, but I'd prefer something like this, although with less extreme risks involved perhaps, as the only teleport option. This way, teleportation would become an emergency - as in, "sure it's risky but we've got to get there quick" - rather than something you use because you don't feel like walking or riding.

All this talking about shadow teleportation reminded me of, but I guess it is a PrC ability, a spell/spell-like-ability/feature with you could warp through the shadows.
Doesn't work for long distance, but walking on the border of the shadow planes sounds cool. And meh if a party member dies, owh wait this char wasn't supposed to be evil. I would almost force my party to teleport in such fashion either way.

In any case clinging to teleportation isn't the main reason to keep conjuration, as people here have proven to me, but it is one of the better secondary reason. (The main reasons are he first 7-10 levels and the fact SR applies to shadow conjuration)
It also depends on the other players (the party is going to start after the summer, but I can't wait while some others barely have an idea what to play) but at least one of them wanted to play to sorc/mindbender. Means if we are desperate we just mind bend some cleric for dispel, a wizard for teleportion and a god for a I-Win-Button.

[gbprime]

Ugh, I'll pass. About the only nice thing about Shadow Walk is that it can double as a ghetto Plane Shift. The transit time, the chance of running into very scary and very hungry natives (which itself can lead to losing party members in the Plane), and the uselessness for recon are big turnoffs. To cap it all, you can't even guarantee you'll come out where you were aiming.

It's all up to the DM anyway. Regardless of how you travel from point A to point B, the DM will give you a hard time or just announce that you get there. Teleport does not make it "easier", just quicker. You can travel by horse, airship, shadow walk, air walk, or what have you... the DM will either put something in your way or he won't. And if you choose to teleport, then that "something in your way" will either happen before you teleport or after you arrive. Same difference.

[Fouredged Sword]

In races of stone there are two feats that allow you to make highten spell better, ie you make the spell one level higher than the slot it takes up. You have to be standing on natural dirt or stone, but still. Casting those shadowesk spells at spell level is just to powerful to not look at.

Earth Sense is the prereq, and Earth Spell makes highten spell more powerful.

It's two feats, three if you count highten, but it is powerful.

Also consider the varied ways to add metamagic to a single spell, like thesis and practical metamagic. If you are always useing silent image, then you can make it very easy to metamagic. Three feats and you can make every casting of silent image empowered.

[Optimystik]

It's all up to the DM anyway. Regardless of how you travel from point A to point B, the DM will give you a hard time or just announce that you get there. Teleport does not make it "easier", just quicker. You can travel by horse, airship, shadow walk, air walk, or what have you... the DM will either put something in your way or he won't. And if you choose to teleport, then that "something in your way" will either happen before you teleport or after you arrive. Same difference.

For "something appears in your way!" scenarios, I agree with you.

But for "you appear where you want to appear" - the chances of success and failure are very different between the two spells.

You can scry your destination until your eyes bleed, or it could be your childhood hometown for which you have the exact coordinates tattooed on your palm and a faded photograph with you and your parents smiling up out of it - if you use Shadow Walk to get there, your chances of landing in the swimming hole, a pile of manure, or even the farmhouse wall (ricocheting all of you to the center of the village and landing fatigued) remain the same.

And finally, teleport IS quicker. Shadow Walk is 50 miles/hour even without random encounters and other junk. That's a GREAT deal slower than "instantaneous."