[WoD] Morality Violations and Mind Control

[Aron Times]

With few exceptions, the various Morality systems in the World of Darkness heavily punish murder, but not the various mind-affecting powers. For example, manslaughter is a serious sin in all Morality systems, including Harmony and Synergy (where it is a sin to kill someone you didn't intend to kill), but deliberately enslaving someone with Dominate or Mind isn't.

By RAW, even killing in self-defense dings most Morality meters, but not most mind rape.

Why is this so? Could this be an anti-hack-and-slash feature that supposedly encourages roleplaying over combat? Or are the developers deliberately encouraging players to be mind-raping slavemasters?

P.S.

Not that I'm complaining, as I usually play Ventrue or Malkovian, but this is just something that bugs me.

[SurlySeraph]

Good question. My first thought is that it's to discourage hack-and-slash and prevent players from seeing killing as meaningless, since a supposedly gritty modern-world game becomes hard to take seriously if you can just mow down everyone without any psychological effects.

To a degree it may just be an oversight; you can surely think of plenty of terrible things people could do that the morality charts don't mention, and the ST can certainly make the player roll morality for doing them. However, it does seem odd that all the morality charts would pass over mind control when they mention such little things as opening an Avernian Gate.

Another way to do it would be to say that the charts where they do mention mind control (i.e. the Mage one) can apply to all characters with access to mind control. However, even there "Magically coercing another so that he violates his own moral code" is only a Wisdom 8 sin, while "Using magic to harm someone" is a Wisdom 4 sin. In other words, forcing someone to stab a guy is far less reprehensible than throwing a magic knife at him would be. Interestingly, for mortals injuring someone (whether accidentally or intentionally) is a Morality 8 sin and accidentally killing someone is a Morality 4 sin. So mind-controlling someone into committing a crime is no worse than accidentally knocking someone off a ledge, and zapping someone nonlethally is as bad as freaking out and killing someone.

I guess the conclusion I'm coming to is more "a lot of the Morality system is poorly thought out" than anything else.

[Asheram]

I agree... in all RPG's, shouldn't a violation against the free will (using mind-affecting powers), be really Evil?

[Aron Times]

Before anyone mentions the higher Morality levels, where even "selfish thoughts" are a violation (Mind controlling someone would be a selfish thought, wouldn't it?, I'd like to limit this discussion to the realistic Morality levels, i.e. 7 or lower. It is nigh impossible for a player character to maintain Morality 8 or higher, so let's focus on Morality levels that can be found on an actual game.

[awa]

I would say you get hit by all of the effects you use mind control to force someone to commit murder okay you have a murder AND a mind control on your conscious

[Riffington]

It's not *really* morality. It's a path to control your Beast. The Beast is a ravening monster. It wants to take, it wants to crush, it wants to devour. You keep it in a box by being deliberate, by following a code of conduct, by clinging to a shadow of your human morality. But it isn't your human morality, it's just a twisted reflection of it. And lies, manipulation, and mindcontrol aren't the Beast's thing. They're a different part of the vampire's psyche.

[The Glyphstone]

It's not *really* morality. It's a path to stay in tune with your Geist. The Geist is a incomprehensible, inhuman entity. It wants to propagate the death that it embodies. You keep it cooperative by being deliberate, by playing a game of give and take, by trading acts of death to feed its hunger for its acceptance and aid in your life. But it isn't your human morality, it's just an ongoing bargain, an extension of the pact you made when you died. And lies, manipulation, and mindcontrol aren't the Geist's thing, it cares only for life and death. They're a different part of the sin eater's attitude.

That was remarkably easy to adapt, though maybe it's just because I like Geist. Just had to change the last word, because psyche is a game term in Geist. :)

I don't know Forsaken/Apocalype that well, but if they have mind control, can someone who does take the template above and rationalize why werewolves won't care about it?

[Semidi]

I'm pretty sure that dominating someone's free will is a rather significant no-no in Mage.

However, in Vampire, it's usually far more moral than other options. For instance, dominate is a fairly safe way to hunt without risking serious harm to your victim. And the only other option with regard to breaches of the Masquerade is murder.

I'd consider most uses of mind control (especially possession), at least in standard issue morality, to be a case of kidnapping at the very least. Oh wait, kidnapping isn't on the morality scale either. I usually stick it in at a level 5 sin though. For changeling it's far lower.

[Kalirren]

What Riffington said. Vampire was the first game, and it was a strongly thematic game, Premised (sensu Edwards) on Christian ideas of redemption. Road was the system mechanic that reflected this.

Dominate was a common discipline. They just couldn't have one of the most common disciplines be an automatic Road violation, so mind control never really ended up inside the default WoD morality framework.

Perfectly thematically fitting, if you ask me.

[JeenLeen]

I'm pretty sure that dominating someone's free will is a rather significant no-no in Mage.

I haven't read all the Mage books myself, but my Storyteller has perused most of oWoD. He told me that the Akaishic Brotherhood (the mages who are masters of Mind) consider it abhorrent to mind control or alter the minds of others at least for any purposes besides saving your own life or that of others. He told me that if Akaishic started 'recruitng' Technocrats or others to his way of thinking, eventually the other Brothers would find out and come and kill him for him.

Different Traditions might have different moral codes, though, but at least among those who specialize in Mind, it is considered very immoral. I assume this carries over to nWoD.

[Chen]

Dominate in and of itself doesn't need to be a morality hit just like firing a gun isn't a morality hit. The morality hit should come from what you DO with the dominate. Simply commanding someone via dominate shouldn't do anything at all (unless you would consider intimidation as a violation, which it could be at high levels). The ST should determine if they consider any memory alterations to be "assault" which I don't think would be unrealistic. Severely changing someone's mind might be even further considered equivalent to rape or torture. But simply using dominate shouldn't in and of itself be an issue.