negative LA

[For Valor]

Soooo... I was looking through Advanced Bestiary and I saw the Dimunitive template. It gives -4 LA, which was a shock to me. I don't think I've ever seen negative LA before. So I started looking through stuff, and I found another negative LA template, the Awakened Incarnate.

So far, I haven't found any others. So:

1) Could someone tell me if they find any others? This is now a quest. I will grant myself XP for it.

2) Couldn't this be a nice idea? I mean, LA stuff above +1 is usually pretty bad (even +1 is disliked) since it makes people squishy, isn't usually worth class ablities (since the decent classes are usually slightly exponential in growth).

I mean, it's basically modifying races with races... but I still like it. Add a couple "You suck" races so that people can take "Arboreal" and "Cave" to powergame and boost their strength.

[Magikeeper]

One issue is that such things would be added on to LA +0 races for extra class levels.

[Skeppio]

Incarnate Construct has a -2 LA iirc. Porblem is, it pretty much robs the base creature of its special abilities and stuff.

[Darrin]

The Incarnate Construct template in Savage Species has a -2 LA, I guess with the idea that it "weakens" a construct by turning it into a humanoid or giant. However, from a mechanical standpoint, it's not one of the most well thought-out templates.

Necropolitan doesn't exactly have a negative LA, but you're supposed to lose a level/HD when it's applied.

[The Glyphstone]

The Incarnate Construct template in Savage Species has a -2 LA, I guess with the idea that it "weakens" a construct by turning it into a humanoid or giant. However, from a mechanical standpoint, it's not one of the most well thought-out templates.

Necropolitan doesn't exactly have a negative LA, but you're supposed to lose a level/HD when it's applied.

Especially because with stuff like Half-Golem templates, you can repeatedly loop them and get infinite strength out of the bargain (for monsters at least, since Half-Golem is LA - ).

[Thurbane]

Negative LA is almost always problematic, leading you to acquire powerful templates for "free". With a moderate amount of min/maxing, you can make basically any drawback from the negative LA redundant. The Diminutive template, for example, is an extreme hindrance to any kind of melee character, but a blessing for any full caster or stealth type. Then pile on +4 LA worth of templates to taste: Spellwarped Dark Creature, for example.

[tyckspoon]

^what they said. Negative LAs are a very seductive idea, but in practical game terms it's one of the most balance-problematic things you can do. Imagine, for example, a Diminutive Dark Feral Phrenic Whispergnome as part of a I'm Small, You're Dead build. It *wants* to be small, and usually acquires Reduce Person as part of its tactics. Nothing but upsides for it.

[Mongoose87]

Necropolitan doesn't exactly have a negative LA, but you're supposed to lose a level/HD when it's applied.

Let's suppose someone takes a character with two RHD, and Necropolitan's it. He now has one RHD. If he takes class levels, does the first replace that one RHD?

[sofawall]

Let's suppose someone takes a character with two RHD, and Necropolitan's it. He now has one RHD. If he takes class levels, does the first replace that one RHD?

It would, but Necropolitan can only be applied to something at least level 3, iirc.

[Mystic Muse]

Is there a table that states what happens if you decrease in size?

and where's the Diminuitive template?

[Thurbane]

I believe the OP is referring to the Miniature template in Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary. It reduces size by 4 categories, meaning anything of medium or smaller size becomes fine.

The rules for decreasing in size can be found in the SRD, mainly affecting AC, to hit bonus, reach and grapple checks. The template does inflicts some additional penalties, including movement rate and hit points, as well as the size of spell effects.

[Mystic Muse]

I believe the OP is referring to the Miniature template in Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary. It reduces size by 4 categories, meaning anything of medium or smaller size becomes fine.

Ah, so it's third party?

[Grumman]

The Incarnate template is from Savage Species. In case you're unaware, this means it's broken as all hell.

[Mystic Muse]

The Incarnate template is from Savage Species. In case you're unaware, this means it's broken as all hell.

Isn't the entirety of Savage species burn worthy material? Or are there aspects that redeem it?

[Thurbane]

Ah, so it's third party?

Indeed. This thread has a good example of it's (mis)use...

[For Valor]

Savage Species is actually kinda nice, and the Incarnate template is decent.

As for negative LA stuff, I was thinking of something more well-thought-out than the Dimunitive template, which is very easily broken. Possible ideas I had were class-specific -LA templates (so you can choose your favorite +template, but you can't take **** that's reserved for melee classes as a full spellcaster or a rogue).

So you take "Clumsy Rogue" for -2 Dexterity and a miscellaneous -4 to dexterity-based checks as a rogue, and you get a +1 LA template.

Or you could take "Squishy Rogue" for a smaller HD and grab a +2 LA template.

[Thurbane]

So what exactly does an Incarnate Construct Phrenic Warforged character get?

If I'm figuring everything correctly, it is a medium Humanoid with the Living Construct (?) and Psionic subtypes, and a 30 foot base speed.

It gets Psi-like abilities based on HD, Power Resistance equal to HD +10, naturally psionic (1 bonus PP), with the following ability mods:

+2 CON
+2 INT
+2 CHA

...not too shabby.

[For Valor]

So what exactly does an Incarnate Construct Phrenic Warforged character get?

If I'm figuring everything correctly, it is a medium Humanoid with the Living Construct (?) and Psionic subtypes, and a 30 foot base speed.

It gets Psi-like abilities based on HD, Power Resistance equal to HD +10, naturally psionic (1 bonus PP), with the following ability mods:

+2 CON
+2 INT
+2 CHA

...not too shabby.

Same problem arises with the Ironborn from The Book of Iron Might. I assume the template wasn't meant for organic constructs. I know a guy who made a Dragonborn (Flight), Arboreal, Cave, Incarnate Ironborn (Iron Heart, Large) for +6 Str, -4 Dex, +4 Con, and -2 to intelligence stats. Plus he could fly and stuff.

[Flickerdart]

The reason Incarnate Construct is retarded is because Golems don't have LA. So you subtract 2 from...nothing.

[Ormagoden]

Savage species as a whole is a pretty good book. Some of the templates are incredibly insane (For example Tauric) but the options for playing the monsters as classes are pure win. Savage species progression allows players to play more things they like even if they are level 1.

[Heliomance]

There are plenty of constructs that do have LA, though. It's also incredibly useful for template stacking when combined with Dustform from Sandstorm, which is a +2LA template that can be applied to any corporeal creature and makes you a construct. Give your half dragon Dustform and Incarnate Construct, and suddenly it's a humanoid/giant and so qualifies for Lycanthrope.

[Mystic Muse]

Savage species as a whole is a pretty good book. Some of the templates are incredibly insane (For example Tauric) but the options for playing the monsters as classes are pure win. Savage species progression allows players to play more things they like even if they are level 1.

Well for monsters I plan on allowing my players to use Oslecamo's and too many other posters to mention monster PCs.

[Flickerdart]

There are plenty of constructs that do have LA, though. It's also incredibly useful for template stacking when combined with Dustform from Sandstorm, which is a +2LA template that can be applied to any corporeal creature and makes you a construct. Give your half dragon Dustform and Incarnate Construct, and suddenly it's a humanoid/giant and so qualifies for Lycanthrope.

Whoa, that's pretty cool...you could make a Werebear Bear!

[For Valor]

werebearbear

bearwerewerebearwere...

[Thrice Dead Cat]

So what exactly does an Incarnate Construct Phrenic Warforged character get?

If I'm figuring everything correctly, it is a medium Humanoid with the Living Construct (?) and Psionic subtypes, and a 30 foot base speed.

It gets Psi-like abilities based on HD, Power Resistance equal to HD +10, naturally psionic (1 bonus PP), with the following ability mods:

+2 CON
+2 INT
+2 CHA

...not too shabby.

For extra fun, instead grab Lolth-touched and Draconic. Less Int, but moar Con and Str. Or, if you want moar Int, go Primordial Giant along with your Phrenic.

[Morph Bark]

I should go locate that "Advanced Bestiary" book sometime then. Diminutive Feral Lolth-Touched White Dragonspawn Mineral Warrior for LA+0 anyone?

[Mystic Muse]

I should go locate that "Advanced Bestiary" book sometime then. Diminutive Feral Lolth-Touched White Dragonspawn Mineral Warrior for LA+0 anyone?

Good luck getting third party material past most DMs. Some homebrew is good but -4 LA? Yeaaaaano.

[Morph Bark]

Good luck getting third party material past most DMs. Some homebrew is good but -4 LA? Yeaaaaano.

True.

Of course, it always helps being the DM yourself.

But then again, our group usually looks into things together whether we should allow it or not, and so far we've used a pretty lot of homebrew. Still, books-wise, we stick only to official books.

...but a normal Medium-sized Feral Lolth-Touched White Dragonspawn Mineral Warrior looks more threatening anyway.

[Mystic Muse]

If you're looking at homebrew and anybody like Paladins Here's my favorite.

There's also this thread for Monster PCs

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

I should go locate that "Advanced Bestiary" book sometime then. Diminutive Feral Lolth-Touched White Dragonspawn Mineral Warrior for LA+0 anyone?

dm-rocks fall you die. . . wait that might not kill you at level 1. . .okay the world explodes you die. . . there we go.