Slade speculation. Formerly a discussion on Natural attacks.

[Mystic Muse]

I'm asking this for two reasons.

1. I'm playing in a game where I have a tail attack I didn't think I was going to use since a greatsword does more damage
2. I was curious whether a Monk who got polymorphed into say, a twelve headed hydra would get both his natural attacks and his unarmed strikes.

I read that they did stack in a thread about natural attacks that was on here a day or two ago and decided I should ask.

[Gralamin]

I'm asking this for two reasons.

1. I'm playing in a game where I have a tail attack I didn't think I was going to use since a greatsword does more damage
2. I was curious whether a Monk who got polymorphed into say, a twelve headed hydra would get both his natural attacks and his unarmed strikes.

I read that they did stack in a thread about natural attacks that was on here a day or two ago and decided I should ask.

Well heres how it usually works:
You have a Primary weapon and secondary weapons. Your Primary weapon is almost always your manufactured weapon (Such as unarmed Strikes, greatsword, etc.). Usually you have the highest attack bonus with your Primary weapon, and your secondaries are at -5. When full attacking, you make one attack for each weapon (Exception: Manufactured weapons get iterative attacks. If you have multiple, see Multiweapon fighting / Two-weapon Fighting), unless your primary weapon gets in the way (IE: You can not stab someone with a greatsword and claw their face off unless you have 4+ arms).

[Mystic Muse]

Ah. So that'd be a yes to both.

I'll ask my DM for the one game if I could just use the tail for flavor reasons for now since a second attack at second level seems a little unbalanced to me.

[Thurbane]

Gralamin is correct. You use your manufactured weapons (including unarmed strike or Monk's flurry of blows) at their normal bonus (including all normal iterative attacks with that weapon), plus any natural attacks that are still eligible (usually bite, tail or gore) at a -5 (secondary) penalty. The Multiattack feat reduces the penalty for secondary natural attacks to -2 (and Improved Multiattack reduces it to 0).

The only ways to get iterative attacks with natural attacks that I am aware of are:
1.) The Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike feats from Draconomicon.
2.) A Druid's animal companion that only has one attack (such as a Wolf) gets one iterative attack at -5 when the druid hits 9th level.

I'll ask my DM for the one game if I could just use the tail for flavor reasons for now since a second attack at second level seems a little unbalanced to me.

That's up to you, of course, but I wouldn't call a 2nd attack at -5 penalty (and only 1/2 STR bonus to damage) unbalanced at 2nd level. A character with Two Weapon Fighting or Rapidshot can do much the same, if not better.

[Mystic Muse]

That's up to you, of course, but I wouldn't call a 2nd attack at -5 penalty (and only 1/2 STR bonus to damage) unbalanced at 2nd level. A character with Two Weapon Fighting or Rapidshot can do much the same, if not better.

Well, I only took the feat for flavor reasons and the flaw I took was pretty insignificant. Especially since I'll become immune to the drawbacks eventually.

[Thurbane]

For instance, a 2nd level human Human Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy variant) with the feats Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder could wield a greataxe two handed and bind the vestige Amon. When whirling he can attack twice with his greataxe and once with his ram attack. Assuming an 18 STR (pre-rage), his attacks would be +8/+6 with the greataxe (1d12+9) and +3 with the ram attack (1d6+9). I'm sure someone could cheese this out much better than I can, anyway...

[Coidzor]

Ah. So that'd be a yes to both.

I'll ask my DM for the one game if I could just use the tail for flavor reasons for now since a second attack at second level seems a little unbalanced to me.

At a -5 penalty and as part of your racial features... no, no it's not unless that tail attack and/or racial package is good enough that you should've gotten LA.

A feat is a feat and if you only took it for flavor, it's not a feat, it's a bit of roleplaying fluff.

So, thusly, there must be some mechanical effect.

[Mystic Muse]

I messaged the DM and said he can get rid of it if he thinks it isn't reasonable at this level or if he does think it's reasonable he can ignore the message. I don't care either way but I figured he should know just in case.

[Coidzor]

I messaged the DM and said he can get rid of it if he thinks it isn't reasonable at this level or if he does think it's reasonable he can ignore the message. I don't care either way but I figured he should know just in case.

Well, here's hoping you don't lose your sense of balance.

[Mystic Muse]

At a -5 penalty and as part of your racial features... no, no it's not unless that tail attack and/or racial package is good enough that you should've gotten LA.

A feat is a feat and if you only took it for flavor, it's not a feat, it's a bit of roleplaying fluff.

So, thusly, there must be some mechanical effect.

Maybe I've been playing in a group that probably would care far too long.

[Zore]

Maybe I've been playing in a group that probably would care far too long.

They would care if you picked an okish feat and used it? A natural attack of 1d3 or 4 plus half strength averages like three extra damage if it hits, which it probably won't due to the -5 to hit it has. Thats a way worse return than something like Power attack and it doesn't scale when you level. And you can only use it on a full attack.

[Mystic Muse]

They would care if you picked an okish feat and used it? A natural attack of 1d3 or 4 plus half strength averages like three extra damage if it hits, which it probably won't due to the -5 to hit it has. That's a way worse return than something like Power attack and it doesn't scale when you level. And you can only use it on a full attack.

It does 1d8 but yeah, they probably would. At least one player and the DM hardly have the best concept of power. And on that game I already do have power attack. I'm probably not getting as much out of that as I could though.

To be clear, the DM thinks Monks are overpowered and wizards are underpowered. I don't know why and don't care why. I'm not going to change his mind without playing a wizard or shoving the evidence in his face at which point he'd just think "Why do you care so much?"

[The Cat Goddess]

A level 1 Wizard, assuming multiple encounters in a single day, is less powerful than a level 1 Monk.

This continues up to approximately level 5.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, in the campaign I'm talking about the Monk is about to be level 10. We don't have a wizard although I plan on playing one if my current character dies*. I have enough self control to not pick the more broken spells if I don't use all my spells known. I'll also have the other two players character sheets so I know what optimization level to use.

*I want to play Raven from Teen titans and an illusionist wizard seems to fit her perfectly. At least as far as I can tell. And I need to be going to bed now.

[Yuki Akuma]

Raven? An illusionist?

She uses telekinesis as her primary mode of attack!

[Mystic Muse]

Raven? An illusionist?

She uses telekinesis as her primary mode of attack!

Well, there's this one spell that seems to work almost all of her attacks. The others would probably be grasping tentacles, contingencied shield or wall of force, some form of banishment and she uses gate once. I also heard about her using time stop but don't recall that episode. If Psions can do all that I'll use one instead.

So, maybe not illusionist but I still think wizard or sorceror.

couldn't get to sleep and I'm not really tired.

[Drakevarg]

I also heard about her using time stop but don't recall that episode.

It was the one where Slade decided he was just too awesome to keep being dead, and stopped.

couldn't get to sleep and I'm not really tired.

I am all too familiar with the feeling. Hence why I'm not asleep right now.

[Mystic Muse]

It was the one where Slade decided he was just too awesome to keep being dead, and stopped.

I kind of remember that episode but don't remember the time stop. Guess I should watch that again.

[Drakevarg]

I kind of remember that episode but don't remember the time stop. Guess I should watch that again.

It might be partially because Slade also decided that he was also too awesome to bother stopping when time did.

[Mystic Muse]

It might be partially because Slade also decided that he was also too awesome to bother stopping when time did.

That's probably it.

Wow he got stupidly powerful by selling his soul didn't he?

[Drakevarg]

That's probably it.

Wow he got stupidly powerful by selling his soul didn't he?

Yes, being Satan's Trigon's undead right-hand man will do that. He eventually decided he couldn't be bothered being subservient either, so he stole his soul back and became mortal again.

Not that stopped him from being able to wipe the floor with the Titans using his bare hands.

[Mystic Muse]

Yes, being Satan's Trigon's undead right-hand man will do that. He eventually decided he couldn't be bothered being subservient either, so he stole his soul back and became mortal again.

Not that stopped him from being able to wipe the floor with the Titans using his bare hands.

To be fair, Trigon didn't follow through on his promise. So, he stole his soul back (and broke several others out) and started beating the crap out of Trigon with the titans.

[Drakevarg]

To be fair, Trigon didn't follow through on his promise. So, he stole his soul back (and broke several others out) and started beating the crap out of him with the other titans.

Point being; Slade is made of awesome. Trigon's boost was simply because overkill is always fun. He doesn't actually need it.

[Mystic Muse]

Point being; Slade is made of awesome. Trigon's boost was simply because overkill is always fun. He doesn't actually need it.

To put it in D&D terms, I think a Monk (Or a fighter focusing on unarmed attacks) beats a wizard/Sorceror (Not sure which) a warlock, a Fighter/Rogue with increased unarmed damage, an artificer and a Druid* single handedly.

*beast boy might be something else. Regardless, Slade is BAD***

[The Cat Goddess]

Slade is not a Monk...

Slade is a Swordsage/Warblade/Artificer triple-Gestalt.

[Mystic Muse]

Slade is not a Monk...

Slade is a Swordsage/Warblade/Artificer triple-Gestalt.

Daw. That makes him less bad***. If only slightly.

[Coidzor]

So, what class and race are you anyway? and what feat gave you a 1d8 tail?

[Mystic Muse]

So, what class and race are you anyway? and what feat gave you a 1d8 tail?

Dragonborn homebrew Paladin and the feat Dragon tail.

EDIT: It's 1d6. It'll be 1d8 when I get powerful build (using a version of Goliath for the base race that my DM modified) Unless powerful build doesn't do that and I'm unaware of it.

Going to try and go to sleep again now.

[Runestar]

Rapidstrike does not technically grant iterative attacks. I read it as simply granting extra attacks when you make a full attack with that particular group of natural weapons.

For example, a 12-headed hydra with rapidstrike will only get 1 extra bite attack, not 12.

[DragoonWraith]

Where did Rapidstrike come in?

Anyway, yeah, this is not overpowered. Getting natural attacks usually comes at a high cost - feats, weak races, etc. If you have one and you're not using it, you're even worse off than if you were.

A level 1 Wizard, assuming multiple encounters in a single day, is less powerful than a level 1 Monk.

This continues up to approximately level 5.

This is inaccurate. It's harder but a level 1 Wizard can still do more than a level 1 Monk.