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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default [3.5]The Extinguisher

    Note: This was my entry for the first Base Class Contest, run by Lord Gareth on these here boards. I'm reposting it in its own thread to see what the community at large thinks of it.

    The Extinguisher
    Spoiler
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    Tell me... are you afraid of the dark?
    -Ignacio, Bringer of Twilight

    When a parent tells their child to fear the darkness, and to use light to keep it at bay, what they truly fear is the Extinguisher. The shadow in the alley, the nameless fear, the silent killer. These are the Extinguishers, a brotherhood of inscrutable killers, who desire nothing less than the ending of all light, so they may reign supreme over the dark.

    Abilities: Dexterity is prime for an Extinguisher, in their role as a scout and assassin.

    Role: An Extinguisher is a scout and skirmisher. In a stand-up fight, they're going to get devastated in short order, but given a moment to prepare, they can produce effects and tricks that none can match. Further, their unnatural affinity for the dark let them enter and exit places that no other can find, much less gain entrance to.

    Background: It is said Extinguishers are born, not made, and this is partially true. The most skilled in the path are born with the unnatural affinity that marks the class, but it IS possible to learn their skills. The brotherhood of Extinguishers can teach you, but you must find them first, which is nigh-impossible. Should you do so though, they will make you one of them.

    Organization: Only one organization counts Extinguishers as a prominent number among them: the unnamed brotherhood that claims to have been founded by the first Extinguisher, a being named Eclipse. Nothing is known of this being, and little more about the brotherhood it founded. When pressed, all Extinguishers will say about the group is, "Eclipse is watching, we can say no more."

    Alignment: Extinguishers may, in theory, be of any alignment. In practice, they are never Good, for the powers of the Extinguisher manifest as dark sorcery to the unenlightened, and so they live hard lives, driving many to desperate ends just to survive. Most Extinguishers are Evil, and the vast vast majority of the rest are Neutral. A Good one could exist, but it would be an anomaly, at best.

    Races: Any race with affinity for the darkness is a natural source of Extinguishers, though the taint manifests in any and all species. The most feared (and rare) of all Extinguishers though come from the race of the Lumi, a race of beings of pure light from the Positive Energy Plane. Rarely, a black Lumi is born with the taint of Eclipse. If they survive, they invariably become a powerful Extinguisher.

    Religion: Extinguishers are a mixed lot when it comes to race. Some believe strongly in the gods of darkness, shadow, and all other such things. Others do not. The one unifying factor is their hatred of the gods of light, such as Pelor.

    Other Classes: Most other classes don't care one way or the other about the Extinguisher, save when their paths cross (such as a wizard casting daylight, or a rogue trying to out-sneak the master of the dark). Extinguishers tend towards companions that can keep up with them in the shadows, though they can be found at the side of anyone. Paladins and Extinguishers don't usually get along, but that's due to the tendency for Extinguishers toward Evil, not because of the class itself.

    Adaptation: No real need, since the powers of the Extinguisher just assume there are people that don't like light. If your game doesn't HAVE light... uh... you've got bigger issues than a one-paragraph entry on class adaptation could ever hope to solve.

    Hit Die: d8. Extinguishers are supernaturally hardy, more than one might think.

    Starting Gold: As rogue.

    Class Features

    Class Skills: The Extinguisher's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

    Skill Points at First Level: (6+Int Mod)x4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6+Int Mod
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |Darkvision 30 ft, Shadow Strike +1d6

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |Light Absorption

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |Darkstalker, Evasion

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Shadow Strike +2d6

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Darkvision 60 ft, darklight

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Light Manipulation

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Shadow Strike +3d6

    8th|
    +6/1
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |cloying darkness

    9th|
    +6/1
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |Blind Fight

    10th|
    +7/2
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |Shadow Strike +4d6, Light Negation

    11th|
    +8/3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |enervating darkness

    12th|
    +9/4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |Body of Shadow

    13th|
    +9/4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |Shadow Strike +5d6, Veil of Darkness

    14th|
    +10/5
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |crushing darkness

    15th|
    +11/6/1
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |Mind of Shadow

    16th|
    +12/7/2
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |Shadow Strike +6d6

    17th|
    +12/7/2
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |Lifesense

    18th|
    +13/8/3
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |Soul of Shadow

    19th|
    +14/9/4
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |Shadow Strike +7d6

    20th|
    +15/10/5
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |Brilliant Annihilation, Shadow Apotheosis[/table]

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Extinguishers are proficient with simple weapons and light and ranged martial weapons, light and medium armors, and light shields.

    Darkvision 30 ft (Ex): At 1st level, the Extinguisher gains darkvision out to 30 ft. At 5th level, this increases to 60 ft.

    Shadow Strike (Su): At 1st level, the Extinguisher learns the first secret of his craft: the shadow strike. This supernatural attack form lets the Extinguisher channel pure darkness into his blade from his surroundings. Anytime that he is in complete darkness (as per pg 79 of the Rules Compendium), he adds the listed amount of damage to all melee attacks or ranged attacks within 30 ft he makes. If he is in even shadowy illumination, he gets no bonus damage. This damage is of the same type as whatever his weapon deals.

    Light Absorption (Su): At 2nd level, the Extinguisher learns the primary source of his power. He begins to emanate a field of energy (radius 5 ft/class level) that absorbs ambient light, and draws it into the Extinguisher. This has a set of effects. First, it sets the illumination level in the area of the field to shadowy illumination at best. Second, the Extinguisher may take a standard action to focus the field, reducing the illumination level in the area of the field to total darkness, this darkness lasts for class level rounds. Each time the Extinguisher does this, he gains a shadow disc. He may have up to 1 shadow disc per class level at any given time. A shadow disc is a physical manifestation of the Extinguisher's natural ability to turn light into darkness, and appears in his hand as a 1-inch wide paper thin disc of purest black. A shadow disc has hardness 10 and 10 hp (if someone else tries to break it, the Extinguisher can snap it just by force of will).

    The Extinguisher may snap a shadow disc as a standard action to produce a bevy of effects. It may grant the Extinguisher an insight bonus to his attack and damage rolls equal to his class level for 1 round. Further, it can be broken to grant the Extinguisher an insight bonus to his next skill check. A shadow disc weighs 1/2 lb and lasts forever. It cannot be given to anyone else, and if it leaves the Extinguisher's possession, it vaporizes into thin air with no effect. The Extinguisher may only have a number of shadow discs at one time equal to his hit dice.

    At level 6, the Extinguisher may use Light Absorption as a move action.

    Darkstalker: At 3rd level, the Extinguisher gains the Darkstalker feat as a bonus feat.

    Evasion (Ex): At 3rd level, the Extinguisher gains Evasion, as the rogue class feature.

    Darklight (Sp): At 5th level, the Extinguisher learns to use his shadow discs for another purpose. He can use a standard action and break a shadow disc to create a darklight effect. Darklight is described in a spoiler at the bottom of this post. The save is DC 13+the Extinguisher's Wisdom modifier, and the Extinguisher's caster level is equal to his class level.

    Light Manipulation (Su): At 6th level, the Extinguisher's power over darkness grows ever stronger. They gain the ability to break a shadow disc to create illusory objects from the very light around them, simultaneously darkening their environment AND making objects out of solid darkness. This effect permits the Extinguisher to make any object of less than 2 cubic feet/class level. They can only make inanimate matter, nothing that was once a plant or animal. They cannot make magical objects, nor anything with moving parts. For instance, an Extinguisher could make a thin and short bridge, but not a door. The objects made by this ability last for 1 round/class level, and have hardness 10 and 10 hp/class level. This is an Illusion (shadow) effect.

    Cloying Darkness (Sp): At 8th level, the Extinguisher gains the ability to use his shadow discs to duplicate the cloying darkness spell (see below). The save is DC 13+the Extinguisher's Wisdom modifier, and the Extinguisher's caster level is equal to his class level.

    Blind Fight: At 9th level, the Extingusher gains Blind-Fight as a bonus feat .

    Light Negation (Su): At 10th level, the Extinguisher learns the secret of negation. When he uses his Light Absorption to lower the light levels to darkness and thus creates a shadow disc, he may create a negation disc instead. A negation disc has only one purpose: to violently nullify light when broken. When a negation disc is broken, it lowers the illumination level in a 60 ft radius around itself to total darkness. For each level of illumination dropped (bright to shadowy, shadowy to dark), the negation disc deals 1d6/class levels damage to everything in the area. Affected creatures get a Fortitude save (DC 15+Wisdom modifier of the Extinguisher that made the disc) for half damage. An Extinguisher may only have one negation disc at any time, and may only use Light Negation to create one negation disc every 24 hours.

    Enervating Darkness (Sp): At 11th level, the Extinguisher gains the ability to use his shadow discs to duplicate the enervating darkness spell (see below). The save is DC 16+the Extinguisher's Wisdom modifier, and the Extinguisher's caster level is equal to his class level.

    Body of Shadow (Ex): At 12th level, the Extinguisher's connection to darkness grows deeper. Their physical form becomes shadowy while in darkness, making them hard to see. They gain total concealment while in anything less than bright conditions.

    Veil of Darkness (Ex): At 13th level, the Extinguisher gains the unique ability to detect light sources in an area around him. He can take a full-round action to discern the brightness and area of all light in a 1,000 ft radius of his current position. He doesn't learn what is generating the light source, nor the presence of any creatures or anything else about the location, just how bright it is and where it is.

    Crushing Darkness (Sp): At 14th level, the Extinguisher gains the ability to use his shadow discs to duplicate the crushing darkness spell (see below). The save is DC 17+the Extinguisher's Wisdom modifier, and the Extinguisher's caster level is equal to his class level.

    Mind of Shadow (Ex): At 15th level, the Extinguisher is so in tune with the darkness that his mind resists attempts by others to influence it, as the darkness reinforces him. He gains a mind blank-esque effect which grants him the ability to roll his saves against enchantments twice and select the more favorable result.

    Lifesense (Su): At 17th level, the Extinguisher gains the powers of the dread wraiths to sense life. He gains the Lifesense ability of the dread wraith.

    Soul of Shadow (Ex): At 18th level, the Extinguisher becomes a living shadow, a wisp in the darkness, a terrible thought. He gains the Dark Template (Tome of Magic, page 158), but does not gain any LA from it.

    Brilliant Annihilation (Su): At 20th level, the Extinguisher finally learns the most powerful weapon in their arsenal. They learn how to utterly snuff out all light in a vast area permanently. To perform the Brilliant Annihilation ritual costs the Extinguisher 100,000 gp and 10,000 xp, and takes 1 week of dedicated work, 8 hours a day, with no interruptions. At the conclusion of this period, and the expenditure of the xp and gp, the Extinguisher gains a single annihilation disc. This disc can be snapped to cause all light sources within 1 mile/class level to snuff out, and be unable to be re-lit. Further, the area is blanketed in total darkness, which not even the sun can penetrate. This effect is permanent, and can only be dispelled by epic magics or the direct personal intervention of a god of light or darkness. Brilliant Annihilation has crushingly detrimental effects on wildlife, plant life, and civilizations, as no artificial light sources (magical or otherwise) function, and plants rapidly wither and die.

    Shadow Apotheosis (Ex): At 20th level, the Extinguisher's connection to the primal darkness of the multiverse is finally at it's zenith. He becomes an Outsider with the Native subtype. He gains Darkvision (indefinite), meaning he can see out to whatever distance his eyes could in normal lighting conditions, but in darkvision. He gains the ability to use Light Absorption as a free action. He can use Light Negation up to 3/day. Lastly, he can summon 1d4 elder shadow elementals (ToM pg 166) at-will. He can have up to 4 such creatures serving him at any one time, and they last for 1 day.


    New Spells
    Spoiler
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    Darklight
    Evocation [Darkness]
    Level: Cleric 3, Sor/Wiz 3
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Close (25 ft+5 ft/2 levels)
    Area: 20 ft radius
    Duration: Instantaneous and 1 round/level
    Saving Throw: Will negates
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    Darklight creates a blinding field of darkness so black it actually blinds darkvision as well. Any creature in the area of darklight must make a Will save or be blinded. This shuts off darkvision as well. The caster is immune to this effect.

    Cloying Darkness
    Evocation [Darkness, Cold]
    Level: Sor/Wiz 3
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Medium (100 ft+10 ft/level)
    Area: 20 ft radius
    Duration: 1 round/level
    Saving Throw: Fort half
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    Cloying darkness functions as the darkness spell, save as noted above and that any creature in the area of the spell must make a Fort save each round they remain in the area or suffer 5d6 cold damage. On a successful save, they suffer half damage instead.

    Enervating Darkness
    Evocation [Darkness]
    Level: Sor/Wiz 6
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Medium (100 ft+10 ft/level)
    Area: 20 ft radius
    Duration: 1 round/level
    Saving Throw: Fort negates
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    Enervating darkness functions as the darkness spell, save as noted above, and that any creature in the area of the spell must make a Fort save each round they remain in the area or gain 1 negative level.

    Crushing Darkness
    Evocation [Darkness, Death]
    Level: Sor/Wiz 7
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Medium (100 ft+10 ft/level)
    Area: 20 ft radius
    Duration: 1 round/level
    Saving Throw: Fort half
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    Crushing darkness functions as the darkness spell, save as noted above, and that any creature in the area of the spell must make a Fort save each round they remain in the area or suffer 10d6 bludgeoning damage. If they make their save, they take half damage.
    Last edited by arguskos; 2011-08-14 at 05:49 PM.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [3.5]The Extinguisher

    Ooooo, nice villain class.
    May I suggest a bonus to AC in exchange for something else.

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    Default Re: [3.5]The Extinguisher

    Quote Originally Posted by josha View Post
    Ooooo, nice villain class.
    May I suggest a bonus to AC in exchange for something else.
    Much like rogues, I don't typically think of this as a class that needs AC really, so I'm curious why you think it needs it.

    Also, what would you suggest I drop in exchange for it?

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: [3.5]The Extinguisher

    I think it needs an AC bonus to emphasize the "shrouded in shadows and hard to hit" feel.

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    Default Re: [3.5]The Extinguisher

    Tone down the damage on cloying darkness and crushing darkness. Incendiary cloud is 8th level, fire damage, a reflex save, and only does 4d6 per round. Acid fog is 6th level, no save 2d6 damage (and the benefits of solid fog).

    Other than that, looks like a good class with plenty of interesting abilities.
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    Default Re: [3.5]The Extinguisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Siosilvar View Post
    Tone down the damage on cloying darkness and crushing darkness. Incendiary cloud is 8th level, fire damage, a reflex save, and only does 4d6 per round. Acid fog is 6th level, no save 2d6 damage (and the benefits of solid fog).

    Other than that, looks like a good class with plenty of interesting abilities.
    Incendiary cloud also has a MASSIVE area, and has the benefits of fog cloud, a better spell than darkness in many respects, and acid fog is no save, larger area, and SOLID FOG, one of the better spells out there period. Also, Incendiary cloud sucks for its level, which is a damn shame. Should be level 6, maybe 7. I will increase the level on Cloying by 1 though, level 3 is a little low. 4 is much more reasonable, I would think (less powerful than something like Evard's Black Tentacles or Enervation or Solid Fog, staples at this level.

    As for Crushing, it's a death effect at level 8. It has the Death descriptor, which is a liability (read: Death Ward). Damage at level 15 isn't that super amazing really, and 10d6 bludgeoning (which is thus subject to DR) is not winning any awards, especially since the Extinguisher can't do any stupidness with metamagics. It's fine as-is I feel.

    I do appreciate the compliments though.

    @josha: Do you have any suggestions for what to take out for such a benefit? What is the bonus keyed to? You know, stuff like that. Any suggestions?

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: [3.5]The Extinguisher

    I don't see the sense in offering extra damage at level one with no way of consistently dealing it (Light Absorption at second level). Even at second level you have to spend a standard action every other round to get access to this damage, so you're really kind of shooting yourself in the foot with these mechanics as written, at least at lower levels. I shouldn't really have to say this, but having to spend four levels in a class that can't do much of anything by itself until you're out of those levels means whole lot of lost opportunities and is design suicide if you want anyone to use this. Once you're past that stage, however, by level six or so the duration will more than likely last the whole combat anyway so any further additions are somewhat superfluous.

    This, however, doesn't really doesn't matter, because once you reach level five you'll be going into combat with five shadow discs and you'll be snapping them more or less at will to blind enemies (darklight) and grant yourself total concealment from distant enemies. Level six expands this strategy, where you'll be spending discs to trap people inside shadow cages (thin ones, perhaps -- it's not horribly broken as is, just more powerful than anything else the class can do by a long shot, UMD aside, since it quite literally will do the same thing) until you've divided the herd enough to actually start stabbing people.

    The other spells aside from darklight aren't actually that great unless you gain immunity to their effects (not specified, assuming no), because otherwise you can't actually force people to stay in them. Being able to target yourself would be fantastic, otherwise they're not spectacular. Darklight is great in that it does let you do this, though fixing the DC at 13 +X (as per your text) removes the incentive to get Heighten SLA, which in turn means enemies will outgrow your DCs at some point.

    Total concealment is downright awesome, especially as it doesn't seem as though true sight would do anything to counter this variety.

    Not really a fan of the Brilliant Annihilation disc. Yeah it's level twenty and no one's ever actually going to get there in earnest, but I don't think it fits well as a class feature. Good plot-type thing, but not particularly useful to a PC and why bother with costs if it's intended for an NPC?

    All in all not very party-friendly either were it to be used by a PC, unless you're party is willing to invest in blindfolds of true darkness. Try telling that to your archer or wizard though, or anyone else who would rather have a different item in that slot.

    If I had to suggest changes, I would make light absorption have variable usage options, each with a multiplier, so if you wanted to use a standard action the resulting darkness would last a long time, but you could also do it as a swift or move action to be able to attack in that same round. The darkness might not last as long in that case, but that's the price you pay for being able to get that extra damage.

    Speaking of which, you NEED that damage to be competitive if you're not going to be just another UMD character or take advantage of those aforementioned light manipulation shenanigans. You'll obviously be picking up the whole TWF feat tree to maximize your damage, but you might still consider upping it to +1d6 every other level, given that you don't get Craven and rogues aren't exactly the pinnacle of DPR.

    Not sure if there's a Sculpt SLA feat but it could really work well in conjunction with this, assuming darkness and its kin can be sculpted. It's been a while since I looked at what effect shapes it could work on.

    In general, your abilities don't have much synergy with one another or the class' strengths. Immunity to your own darkness effects would be an easy way to add some, though going beyond that might require totally new abilities.

    All in all, a bit inconsistent (power-wise) in what each ability does. Through the first four levels it's relatively weak by almost any standards. Fighter, rogue, wizard, maybe even monk. Five makes you competitive for a short duration and six is awesome if you're using it as I imagine it. The hardness 10 is really holding that ability together. Without it you're still forcing people to spend a turn attacking the shadows to get out, but with it you're forcing many to spend multiple turns, though a few critters will likely get over it in a single round. After that, assuming said strategy, your levels only serve to add to how much material you can make with light manipulation. Total concealment is on the same level, just a lot better than things offered in between, like cloying darkness.

    What level of balance are/were you shooting for?

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    Default Re: [3.5]The Extinguisher

    Holy crap. Was not expecting this. Let's take it one bite at a time, shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jota View Post
    What level of balance are/were you shooting for?
    Tier-wise? Around 4, perhaps low 3. This was not exactly a class for most folks, it's not a replacement for anything. It's a focused creation, built to do one thing (sneak around, stab people, be dark) and not much else.

    I don't see the sense in offering extra damage at level one with no way of consistently dealing it (Light Absorption at second level). Even at second level you have to spend a standard action every other round to get access to this damage, so you're really kind of shooting yourself in the foot with these mechanics as written, at least at lower levels. I shouldn't really have to say this, but having to spend four levels in a class that can't do much of anything by itself until you're out of those levels means whole lot of lost opportunities and is design suicide if you want anyone to use this. Once you're past that stage, however, by level six or so the duration will more than likely last the whole combat anyway so any further additions are somewhat superfluous.
    Everything starts small. Given that darkness is actually a fairly strong condition, it's not quite as bad as you think. The reasoning on why Shadow Strike is at level 1 and Absorption is at level 2 was from an aesthetic design standpoint, which sounds stupid I know, and honestly, there's not much defense for. I'd rather not totally rewrite this class though, that'd be a severe pain in the ass.

    This, however, doesn't really doesn't matter, because once you reach level five you'll be going into combat with five shadow discs and you'll be snapping them more or less at will to blind enemies (darklight) and grant yourself total concealment from distant enemies. Level six expands this strategy, where you'll be spending discs to trap people inside shadow cages (thin ones, perhaps -- it's not horribly broken as is, just more powerful than anything else the class can do by a long shot, UMD aside, since it quite literally will do the same thing) until you've divided the herd enough to actually start stabbing people.
    This fails to bother me. It was intended.

    The other spells aside from darklight aren't actually that great unless you gain immunity to their effects (not specified, assuming no), because otherwise you can't actually force people to stay in them. Being able to target yourself would be fantastic, otherwise they're not spectacular. Darklight is great in that it does let you do this, though fixing the DC at 13 +X (as per your text) removes the incentive to get Heighten SLA, which in turn means enemies will outgrow your DCs at some point.
    You don't have strict immunity. What you do is you trap folks and then use a disc to drop a spell on-top of them.

    Total concealment is downright awesome, especially as it doesn't seem as though true sight would do anything to counter this variety.
    Light Negation was intended to be one of the class's serious "holy ****, what the **** is happening augh" features. Don't forget, it also does good damage (10d6 untyped Fort for half at the level you get it; this shouldn't be totally ignored).

    Not really a fan of the Brilliant Annihilation disc. Yeah it's level twenty and no one's ever actually going to get there in earnest, but I don't think it fits well as a class feature. Good plot-type thing, but not particularly useful to a PC and why bother with costs if it's intended for an NPC?
    Because I'm a large believer of the school of thought that says EVERYTHING must be duplicatable, everything has a cost, everything can be done by a PC as well as by an NPC. Period. As for your dislike, yes, that's fair, but you'll note you get two capstones, the other of which is quite good.

    All in all not very party-friendly either were it to be used by a PC, unless you're party is willing to invest in blindfolds of true darkness. Try telling that to your archer or wizard though, or anyone else who would rather have a different item in that slot.
    Actually, it can be very party-friendly, just not in a straight up brawl. The Extinguisher was intended to be a scout, a skirmisher, someone who picks off valuable targets (try seeing the enemy mage break out of a shadow cage or endure a cloying/crushing darkness for more than a turn or two).

    If I had to suggest changes, I would make light absorption have variable usage options, each with a multiplier, so if you wanted to use a standard action the resulting darkness would last a long time, but you could also do it as a swift or move action to be able to attack in that same round. The darkness might not last as long in that case, but that's the price you pay for being able to get that extra damage.
    Hmm. This is fairly interesting. I could consider altering the speed Light Manipulation functions at. However, I'd like to note that you apparently missed the second half of that ability, which can give you the fairly rare insight bonus to attacks and damage for a round (tied to class level, again; and it goes to all attacks in that next round).

    Speaking of which, you NEED that damage to be competitive if you're not going to be just another UMD character or take advantage of those aforementioned light manipulation shenanigans. You'll obviously be picking up the whole TWF feat tree to maximize your damage, but you might still consider upping it to +1d6 every other level, given that you don't get Craven and rogues aren't exactly the pinnacle of DPR.
    Amusingly enough, all you need is SA +1d6 to take Craven and get +20 to your sneak attacks, which Shadow Strike is almost always going to be.

    Not sure if there's a Sculpt SLA feat but it could really work well in conjunction with this, assuming darkness and its kin can be sculpted. It's been a while since I looked at what effect shapes it could work on.
    Darkness can be sculpted, but there is no such feat. There should be.

    In general, your abilities don't have much synergy with one another or the class' strengths. Immunity to your own darkness effects would be an easy way to add some, though going beyond that might require totally new abilities.
    I think the trick here is that you're coming at this from a "why is this not Tier 2-3 levels of power?" where I was saying "how do I make a flavorful class that can still DO things around a Tier 3-4 level of power?" The class isn't as powerless as you think, it just requires a different approach than you might be used to.

    All in all, a bit inconsistent (power-wise) in what each ability does. Through the first four levels it's relatively weak by almost any standards. Fighter, rogue, wizard, maybe even monk. Five makes you competitive for a short duration and six is awesome if you're using it as I imagine it. The hardness 10 is really holding that ability together. Without it you're still forcing people to spend a turn attacking the shadows to get out, but with it you're forcing many to spend multiple turns, though a few critters will likely get over it in a single round. After that, assuming said strategy, your levels only serve to add to how much material you can make with light manipulation. Total concealment is on the same level, just a lot better than things offered in between, like cloying darkness.
    Level does quite a bit more (powers Light Negation damage, powers insight to atk/dmg). However, yes, the class is weak early. That's a known flaw.

    Thanks for the insight. Do you have any suggestions on your variable usage thought for Light Absorption?

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Default Re: [3.5]The Extinguisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Jota View Post
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    I don't see the sense in offering extra damage at level one with no way of consistently dealing it (Light Absorption at second level). Even at second level you have to spend a standard action every other round to get access to this damage, so you're really kind of shooting yourself in the foot with these mechanics as written, at least at lower levels. I shouldn't really have to say this, but having to spend four levels in a class that can't do much of anything by itself until you're out of those levels means whole lot of lost opportunities and is design suicide if you want anyone to use this. Once you're past that stage, however, by level six or so the duration will more than likely last the whole combat anyway so any further additions are somewhat superfluous.

    This, however, doesn't really doesn't matter, because once you reach level five you'll be going into combat with five shadow discs and you'll be snapping them more or less at will to blind enemies (darklight) and grant yourself total concealment from distant enemies. Level six expands this strategy, where you'll be spending discs to trap people inside shadow cages (thin ones, perhaps -- it's not horribly broken as is, just more powerful than anything else the class can do by a long shot, UMD aside, since it quite literally will do the same thing) until you've divided the herd enough to actually start stabbing people.

    The other spells aside from darklight aren't actually that great unless you gain immunity to their effects (not specified, assuming no), because otherwise you can't actually force people to stay in them. Being able to target yourself would be fantastic, otherwise they're not spectacular. Darklight is great in that it does let you do this, though fixing the DC at 13 +X (as per your text) removes the incentive to get Heighten SLA, which in turn means enemies will outgrow your DCs at some point.

    Total concealment is downright awesome, especially as it doesn't seem as though true sight would do anything to counter this variety.

    Not really a fan of the Brilliant Annihilation disc. Yeah it's level twenty and no one's ever actually going to get there in earnest, but I don't think it fits well as a class feature. Good plot-type thing, but not particularly useful to a PC and why bother with costs if it's intended for an NPC?

    All in all not very party-friendly either were it to be used by a PC, unless you're party is willing to invest in blindfolds of true darkness. Try telling that to your archer or wizard though, or anyone else who would rather have a different item in that slot.

    If I had to suggest changes, I would make light absorption have variable usage options, each with a multiplier, so if you wanted to use a standard action the resulting darkness would last a long time, but you could also do it as a swift or move action to be able to attack in that same round. The darkness might not last as long in that case, but that's the price you pay for being able to get that extra damage.

    Speaking of which, you NEED that damage to be competitive if you're not going to be just another UMD character or take advantage of those aforementioned light manipulation shenanigans. You'll obviously be picking up the whole TWF feat tree to maximize your damage, but you might still consider upping it to +1d6 every other level, given that you don't get Craven and rogues aren't exactly the pinnacle of DPR.

    Not sure if there's a Sculpt SLA feat but it could really work well in conjunction with this, assuming darkness and its kin can be sculpted. It's been a while since I looked at what effect shapes it could work on.

    In general, your abilities don't have much synergy with one another or the class' strengths. Immunity to your own darkness effects would be an easy way to add some, though going beyond that might require totally new abilities.

    All in all, a bit inconsistent (power-wise) in what each ability does. Through the first four levels it's relatively weak by almost any standards. Fighter, rogue, wizard, maybe even monk. Five makes you competitive for a short duration and six is awesome if you're using it as I imagine it. The hardness 10 is really holding that ability together. Without it you're still forcing people to spend a turn attacking the shadows to get out, but with it you're forcing many to spend multiple turns, though a few critters will likely get over it in a single round. After that, assuming said strategy, your levels only serve to add to how much material you can make with light manipulation. Total concealment is on the same level, just a lot better than things offered in between, like cloying darkness.

    What level of balance are/were you shooting for?
    I'd say being able to create complete darkness is actually pretty strong, as many creatures will have trouble fighting within it, if capable at all. Likely a reason for the slower Shadow Strike progression. Obviously, this class was created for dungeon crawls on early levels to be effective at all, but for most people that's not too much of a problem. Also, the Extinguisher is almost always immune to his own darkness. The Light Absorption ability allows creatures with darkvision to see through it, and all of the spells don't affect the caster. While I'll agree this sort of weakens teamwork, it isn't too subpar in terms of combat effectiveness.

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    Default Re: [3.5]The Extinguisher

    Okay. I was re-reading some of what I said, and I'm going to say, and I want to make it clear that I find this class interesting, which is why I'm taking the time to do this. If my tone seems harsh at points, I'm only trying to be honest so as to result in the best end product.

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Holy crap. Was not expecting this. Let's take it one bite at a time, shall we?

    Tier-wise? Around 4, perhaps low 3. This was not exactly a class for most folks, it's not a replacement for anything. It's a focused creation, built to do one thing (sneak around, stab people, be dark) and not much else.
    Okay, thinking with this information now.

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Everything starts small. Given that darkness is actually a fairly strong condition, it's not quite as bad as you think. The reasoning on why Shadow Strike is at level 1 and Absorption is at level 2 was from an aesthetic design standpoint, which sounds stupid I know, and honestly, there's not much defense for. I'd rather not totally rewrite this class though, that'd be a severe pain in the ass.
    Not to be a jerk, but aesthetics is a poor reason for functional failure. I get where you're coming from having been in the same position myself (tried to make a class that mirrored the nature of its abilities over the first and last ten levels), but I think the point stands.

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    This fails to bother me. It was intended.

    You don't have strict immunity. What you do is you trap folks and then use a disc to drop a spell on-top of them.
    I was not thinking about shadow cages and darkness effects, so touché on the synergy there.

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Light Negation was intended to be one of the class's serious "holy ****, what the **** is happening augh" features. Don't forget, it also does good damage (10d6 untyped Fort for half at the level you get it; this shouldn't be totally ignored).
    That's 35 damage on average, less if they save. Not even once per encounter, but once per day. A fire giant, to give a CR 10 creature, has 142 hit points. A juvenile blue dragon (CR 8) has the same. A bebilith (CR 10) has 150. A vrock (CR 9), 115. 35 damage, most likely 18, maybe even weight it to 27/28 -- no matter how you slice it, it's not a lot.

    And it's got a good area, yes, but you're hitting your people too.

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Because I'm a large believer of the school of thought that says EVERYTHING must be duplicatable, everything has a cost, everything can be done by a PC as well as by an NPC. Period. As for your dislike, yes, that's fair, but you'll note you get two capstones, the other of which is quite good.
    Not sure I agree with you on that initial premise, but I will agree the second capstone is quite nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Actually, it can be very party-friendly, just not in a straight up brawl. The Extinguisher was intended to be a scout, a skirmisher, someone who picks off valuable targets (try seeing the enemy mage break out of a shadow cage or endure a cloying/crushing darkness for more than a turn or two).
    Maybe it's just the DMs I have, but most combats are brawls. Combats where we have time to prepare are massacres. You can do this same trick to a mage regardless, and it takes two turns to establish, at which point he might have killed you already or escaped, but such is the nature of the beast. Not the point. The point is, you can't drop a darklight on yourself for protection if your allies are nearby, and you can't drop these things on enemies if you want your allies to have shots at them as well, unless they're also using area effects. That kind of sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Hmm. This is fairly interesting. I could consider altering the speed Light Manipulation functions at. However, I'd like to note that you apparently missed the second half of that ability, which can give you the fairly rare insight bonus to attacks and damage for a round (tied to class level, again; and it goes to all attacks in that next round).
    I didn't miss it, though I did forget to mention it. I was thinking it applied until the start of your next turn, so AoOs only, though it has much more functionality the way you say. That could be clarified. Unless you're doubling your output in the next round though you're losing out. And given the time value of money (damage), one could argue that bonus ought to multiply your damage by a little more than two (say 2.5) to be worth while.

    I don't really feel like running the numbers right now, but I still don't think your base damage is so impressive that whatever multiplier this effect has makes it equal to another skirmisher-type, especially when you need your standard actions for other things as currently written.

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Amusingly enough, all you need is SA +1d6 to take Craven and get +20 to your sneak attacks, which Shadow Strike is almost always going to be.
    Not sure what your point is here.

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Darkness can be sculpted, but there is no such feat. There should be.

    I think the trick here is that you're coming at this from a "why is this not Tier 2-3 levels of power?" where I was saying "how do I make a flavorful class that can still DO things around a Tier 3-4 level of power?" The class isn't as powerless as you think, it just requires a different approach than you might be used to.

    Level does quite a bit more (powers Light Negation damage, powers insight to atk/dmg). However, yes, the class is weak early. That's a known flaw.
    I'm looking at this as: how powerful is any given class feature, how consistent is that power from ability to ability, and as a whole what level of power is this? Because class features are about power and combat. Otherwise this wouldn't be D&D 3.5e. It'd be freeform or something.

    I'd also stand by what I said earlier about additional levels. Light Negation damage is weak and a double-edged sword. The insight to attack damage is dependent on the base damage, which I'm not sold on.

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Thanks for the insight. Do you have any suggestions on your variable usage thought for Light Absorption?
    One option something like a swift = 1, move = 2, standard = 3, full-round = 4, where the number is how many of your turns the darkness lasts for, including the current one. That doesn't particularly scale well with level, but you could say that's a base and then add one to that value for every five class levels you have.

    The multiplier idea might work as swift = 0.25, move = 0.5, standard = 1, and then multiply the multiplier by your class level, with the result being how many of your turns the darkness lasts for, including the current one.

    If you wanted to spice things up a bit, you could increase these multiplier and then add original class abilities that are fueled by darkness. For example, upon creation, a pocket of darkness has a value of 20. When you perform specific actions in the darkness (attacking, light manipulation perhaps, but potentially new actions as well, maybe fold some shadowdancer abilities into the class and get shadow slide or whatever it's called), you drain the darkness to power your abilities. When the value reaches zero, it's not darkness anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazddndfreek View Post
    I'd say being able to create complete darkness is actually pretty strong, as many creatures will have trouble fighting within it, if capable at all. Likely a reason for the slower Shadow Strike progression. Obviously, this class was created for dungeon crawls on early levels to be effective at all, but for most people that's not too much of a problem. Also, the Extinguisher is almost always immune to his own darkness. The Light Absorption ability allows creatures with darkvision to see through it, and all of the spells don't affect the caster. While I'll agree this sort of weakens teamwork, it isn't too subpar in terms of combat effectiveness.
    Darkvision seems a lot more common with Team Monster, at least upon cursory inspection. And you're clearly wrong about some of the other things, as arguskos' post indicates.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: [3.5]The Extinguisher

    Quote Originally Posted by Jota View Post
    Okay. I was re-reading some of what I said, and I'm going to say, and I want to make it clear that I find this class interesting, which is why I'm taking the time to do this. If my tone seems harsh at points, I'm only trying to be honest so as to result in the best end product.
    Understood.

    Not to be a jerk, but aesthetics is a poor reason for functional failure. I get where you're coming from having been in the same position myself (tried to make a class that mirrored the nature of its abilities over the first and last ten levels), but I think the point stands.
    ...I said as much myself? No reason to say it twice.

    I was not thinking about shadow cages and darkness effects, so touché on the synergy there.
    That's only the beginning. The concept was that you would take multiple turns to create large synergistic chains of effects (shadow cages, shadow boulders, shadow who-knows-what) and then pile the darkness tricks in there for giggles.

    That's 35 damage on average, less if they save. Not even once per encounter, but once per day. A fire giant, to give a CR 10 creature, has 142 hit points. A juvenile blue dragon (CR 8) has the same. A bebilith (CR 10) has 150. A vrock (CR 9), 115. 35 damage, most likely 18, maybe even weight it to 27/28 -- no matter how you slice it, it's not a lot.

    And it's got a good area, yes, but you're hitting your people too.
    Didn't say it was going to win games. Said it was significant. Look at the area, look at how it's not resistible, look at how it's targeting Fort, and look at how it gives unbreachable 100% darkness. Combined, this makes a fairly useful 1/day ability.

    The class is meant to work solo, with the party as fire support and tactical support. It assumes a lot more tactical thinking than many players are used to. For example, the Mage uses Solid Fog, the Archer uses Ranged Pins/Sunders, and the Extinguisher caps it with a Negation or a Cloying/Crushing Darkness. Each individual effort isn't super amazing, but together they weave a highly effective whole. This is just one example of how the Extinguisher was meant to function.

    Not sure I agree with you on that initial premise, but I will agree the second capstone is quite nice.
    On the first premise, you don't have to. However, keep in mind that ALL of my work is done with this concept in mind. Anything an NPC does should and can be duplicated. It's just usually hard. Also, yeah, the second capstone is the real gem.

    Maybe it's just the DMs I have, but most combats are brawls. Combats where we have time to prepare are massacres. You can do this same trick to a mage regardless, and it takes two turns to establish, at which point he might have killed you already or escaped, but such is the nature of the beast. Not the point. The point is, you can't drop a darklight on yourself for protection if your allies are nearby, and you can't drop these things on enemies if you want your allies to have shots at them as well, unless they're also using area effects. That kind of sucks.
    So, the point here is that action economy sucks if you're not a caster? Well, yes, I could have told you that. Again, team player. Alone, the Extinguisher takes time to set up.

    Note that I'm sorry for your loss. I dislike having nothing but brawls for combats, and as a DM aim to make them not all be as such. I like highly tactical thinking.

    I didn't miss it, though I did forget to mention it. I was thinking it applied until the start of your next turn, so AoOs only, though it has much more functionality the way you say. That could be clarified. Unless you're doubling your output in the next round though you're losing out. And given the time value of money (damage), one could argue that bonus ought to multiply your damage by a little more than two (say 2.5) to be worth while.
    ...I felt it was fairly clear already. Gaining a bonus for 1 total round means that you have that bonus until the end of your next turn. Makes sense to me.

    It hits on every attack, you could easily be TWFing if you wanted to (given that the class as no feat chains for it specifically, something I'd be interested in fixing sometime). Shadow Strike+Insight=level on Atk/Dmg can add up decently well. Given that you're a secondary combatant at best, I think it's ok if a TWF DPS Rogue outdamages you. That's their ENTIRE character after all. You do other stuff too.

    I don't really feel like running the numbers right now, but I still don't think your base damage is so impressive that whatever multiplier this effect has makes it equal to another skirmisher-type, especially when you need your standard actions for other things as currently written.
    It's not equal to another skimisher through base damage alone. It never was meant to be. However, it CAN get good attacks in. Here's a thought: archery. The bonuses apply to any attacks you make, period. So, why not do Manyshot Splitting archery shenananananananagins? You'd be better than the rogue even, or at least even.

    Not sure what your point is here.
    You mentioned that this class doesn't benefit from craven. I pointed out that with a single level dip, it can get the free +20 damage from Craven, and still benefit, since Shadow Strike is almost always going to be a Sneak Attack (from the darkness, etc). Wasn't really a vastly vital comment.

    I'm looking at this as: how powerful is any given class feature, how consistent is that power from ability to ability, and as a whole what level of power is this? Because class features are about power and combat. Otherwise this wouldn't be D&D 3.5e. It'd be freeform or something.
    Fair enough. I do think you're missing the bigger picture, but I acknowledge that the consistency is an issue in spots, though it's much better in this regard than many classes I could point to (Barbarian comes to mind, actually, where only really level 1-3 is worth anything). It's not perfect, but what is.

    I'd also stand by what I said earlier about additional levels. Light Negation damage is weak and a double-edged sword. The insight to attack damage is dependent on the base damage, which I'm not sold on.
    Light Negation requires finesse. In a brawl, yes, it's nigh-useless, not going to argue that one. If planned well, it is very effective.

    The insight bonus... is not really dependent on base damage whatsoever? And, again, I could see TWF or Archery both working out well with it (TWF would be a lot harder to pull off, but with the Belt of Battle or clever use of UMD or Tumble+5 ft steps it could happen).

    One option something like a swift = 1, move = 2, standard = 3, full-round = 4, where the number is how many of your turns the darkness lasts for, including the current one. That doesn't particularly scale well with level, but you could say that's a base and then add one to that value for every five class levels you have.

    The multiplier idea might work as swift = 0.25, move = 0.5, standard = 1, and then multiply the multiplier by your class level, with the result being how many of your turns the darkness lasts for, including the current one.

    If you wanted to spice things up a bit, you could increase these multiplier and then add original class abilities that are fueled by darkness. For example, upon creation, a pocket of darkness has a value of 20. When you perform specific actions in the darkness (attacking, light manipulation perhaps, but potentially new actions as well, maybe fold some shadowdancer abilities into the class and get shadow slide or whatever it's called), you drain the darkness to power your abilities. When the value reaches zero, it's not darkness anymore.
    This is good stuff. I think it's a bit beyond the scope of what I want to do here, but, it's something I may nick for a non-related prestige class, if that's acceptable to you.

    Darkvision seems a lot more common with Team Monster, at least upon cursory inspection. And you're clearly wrong about some of the other things, as arguskos' post indicates.
    Darkvision is annoyingly prevalent, since several major creature types get it default (Outsiders, Dragons, Aberrations, etc).

    Also, yes, you are incorrect about the spells. They're not auto-immune to their own darkness spells. I purposefully kept them non-immune, though I'm beginning to think that was a mistake.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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