Pathfinder Rogue Magic

[Brett Wong]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/basic-classes/rogue

Would it be acceptable to let a player take more than 'Major Magic' as a rogue trick? So would it be too OP or would it be balanced if the Rogue gained a new spell level and a new spell every second Level

Looking at the sorcerer and wizard's spell progression, this rogue is far less versatile as he only has one spell from each level that he can use twice a day, BUT he's not a spell caster so does this give him too much versatility. Other casters akin to the rogue only get up to 6th level spells a-la ranger, but they have spells as an integrated class ability not as something optional they are sacrificing other options for. This character would be giving up all of his normal and advanced rogue talents to cast spells. He could do this just as easily with a rogue/sorcerer/arcane trickster type of build, you would get slightly less sneak attack but more spell versatility and more abilities (like ranged legerdemain). The player wanted his character to have these spells as more of a trick of the trade kind of deal. Because it fit's his character.

But the main question is, is this balanced as it also gives access to the rogues capstone ability master-strike.

Normal Talents
2nd one 0-level spell, twice a day
4th one 1-level spell, twice a day
6th one 2-level spell, twice a day
8th one 3-level spell, twice a day
Advanced Talents
10th one 4-level spell, twice a day
12th one 5-level spell, twice a day
14th one 6-level spell, twice a day
16th one 7-level spell, twice a day
18th one 8-level spell, twice a day
20th one 9-level spell, twice a day

[Redrat2k6]

I'm all for upping the power of the rogue. Even though his sneak attack is already buffed in Pathfinder I gave him an extra Rogue Talent at level 1.

However, I think that higher level spells are something that should be reserved for spellcasters. It keeps casters unique in that ability, and any other magic for the rogue should be used through the UMD skill.

I personally would let the rogue have spells up to a certain level, but not the earth shattering higher level spells that wizards are known for.

If it was my campaign I would make the cap at level 2 or 3 spells.

[Brett Wong]

True. But I also thought It would be hard for the rogue as it would give him more MAD If he wanted to fight and cast 9th level spells he would need a int of at least 19. I can see where you're coming from and it is true that the highest level spells should be reserved for wizards and sorcerers.

Do you think that taking away a cast per day for the higher level spells would make it more viable, considering the required 19 int? I realize now that the int at least synergises with a rogues many skills, as well as it's master strike DC, but 19 intelligence is still a heavy int investment.

[QuantumSteve]

Because all Rogues should be able cast Time Stop. As for MAD, a +6 Int item cost 36,000gp. I'd buy two 9th Level spells a day for 36,000gp. I'd buy that all day.

1. 9th level spells are the purview of full casters. If you want to just hand out free spells to every class, great, but I don't see anything about Rogues that they should unlock arcane secrets of that magnitude.

2. While this ability certainly wouldn't put high level Rogues on par with full casters, (It wouldn't even put them tier two) These Rogue Talents would be light years better than every other Talent. What if Fighter could trade weapon and armor training for a full casting progression? Or instead of a Weapon Style, a Ranger gets Druid casting?

I'm not saying it's broken per se just clearly better than every other option, and that's what makes it unbalanced.

[tyckspoon]

I wouldn't go all the way to 9th level, but I don't think there's anything wrong with making Even More Major Magic talents.. especially since Major Magic itself rapidly becomes a wasted choice as you are almost already past the usefulness of most 1st level spells as soon as you can select it. Scale them to.. probably 5th, I think.

[Another_Poet]

It's not overpowered.

[QuantumSteve]

I wouldn't go all the way to 9th level, but I don't think there's anything wrong with making Even More Major Magic talents.. especially since Major Magic itself rapidly becomes a wasted choice as you are almost already past the usefulness of most 1st level spells as soon as you can select it. Scale them to.. probably 5th, I think.

2 Expeditious Retreats per day never stop being useful. You just have to pick spells for the long run.

(Also Shield, Grease, Charm Person, Disguise Self)

[Pink]

2 Expeditious Retreats per day never stop being useful. You just have to pick spells for the long run.

(Also Shield, Grease, Charm Person, Disguise Self)

Grease doesn't make you flat footed anymore (or at least, the spell doesn't say that anywhere, and it specifically says you're not if you stay still), not that special for rogues.

The DC on charm person likely won't be high enough to be effective at higher levels though. Can't argue with the disguise and shield and expeditious retreat. Featherfall might not go amiss either.

[QuantumSteve]

Grease doesn't make you flat footed anymore (or at least, the spell doesn't say that anywhere, and it specifically says you're not if you stay still), not that special for rogues.

The DC on charm person likely won't be high enough to be effective at higher levels though. Can't argue with the disguise and shield and expeditious retreat. Featherfall might not go amiss either.

I forgot about the changes to Grease. That stinks. (At least it still flat-foots you if you move, thats covered in the Acrobatics Skill)
Charm Person has always been a utility spell in my book rather than offense, and the NPCs I Charm scale much slower than the monsters I fight. ex. the lv2 guard at the ball I want to enter without an invite.

Though, I will admit, Charm Person can be more easily subbed for a high Bluff/Diplomacy roll than other lv 1 spells.

[Bharg]

I think spells over fourth or sixth level are too much.
Does he want to visit evening school to learn them?