oWod problems.

[Shinizak]

my friends and I want to simplify mage/werewolf/vampire into 1 system, we already figured out that every system has a roll system (arete/rage/ and I think humanity) and a spend system (quintessence/gnosis/ and blood points), so we're reconfiguring the will power into a roll system and adding something like a generic spend system called "feed."

now what we need to do is figure out all the problems with the systems and strip/reconfigure those.

we rebuilt the battle system and gave it an HP system that combines D&D and oWoD

Known:

Mages can do anything as long as they have the spheres and arete. especially once they figure out how to get around paradox.

Vampires are too dang WEAK, they can't really do anything a mortal can't and they have the added negative of being extra allergic to sunlight.

Werewolves can spend all their time as an 8 foot tall god of death and agony that instantly regenerates it's wounds. (unless you have silver on you)

Can you think of anything else?

Also accepting problem areas for wraith and changeling.

[Jarveiyan]

Actually there is 2 "gifts" or whatever that can deal with the silver problem. I know because one of my friends that has made Garou characters has used the gift where he takes no penalty from wielding or having silver on his self ontop of not getting aggravated wounds from silver weapons used on him.

[Shinizak]

Actually there is 2 "gifts" or whatever that can deal with the silver problem. I know because one of my friends that has made Garou characters has used the gift where he takes no penalty from wielding or having silver on his self ontop of not getting aggravated wounds from silver weapons used on him.

But that's a system problem. An already overly powerful monster shouldn't have it's one (underpowered) balancing factor taken away.

[Yuki Akuma]

Hey, White Wolf already did this for you. It's called nWoD.

[Shinizak]

Hey, White Wolf already did this for you. It's called nWoD.

No, I want to do this myself! >=[

[mostlyharmful]

Well, there's two big problems:

1. Non-compatible 'races', you've got this one in mind but there's not much you can do to smooth over this short of rewriting the whole lot so much you may as well use nWoD cause it'll be easier. Seriously, ground up rebuild of multiple systems can take months before testing

2. Non-compatible mythology, Garou is Animistic, Vamp is Judeo-Christian, Kindred of the East is Taoist, Mummy is Eygptian, Wraith is depressing and Changling is just on smack. Running them all together means you've got to wrench a sane systemic plot from oWoD's metaplot... good luck with that one, let us know how it works out.....


You're best bet is just to work out which game you enjoy the most, run that and splat in a few randoms as and when the plot depends while whistling queitly when the question of their motivation and power source comes up.

[Kurald Galain]

Mages can do anything as long as they have the spheres and arete. especially once they figure out how to get around paradox.

Well, except that they can't. Unprepared mages are notoriously squishy; ritual magic can take rather long to cast; and a decent DM will not simply let you "get around paradox" anyway. Plus, anything suspicious will get the Technocracy on your tail, fast.

Vampires are too dang WEAK, they can't really do anything a mortal can't and they have the added negative of being extra allergic to sunlight.

Excuse me? Vampires have things like dominate and thaumaturgy, all of which are exceedingly powerful in the hands of a skilled player. They can also ghoul most creatures to get an army going, are rather resilient to stuff like bullets, and most other supernaturals lack a common counter to either Presence or Obfuscate.

Werewolves can spend all their time as an 8 foot tall god of death and agony that instantly regenerates it's wounds. (unless you have silver on you)

And they can't do that, either. It violates the Veil and the Litany, causes delirium all around you, insults several spirits you may need, and gets both the elders and Pentex after your hide quicker than you can say "primal urge".

Yes, most garou can take the average kindred apart in seconds, in combat. But kindred are smarter than that, and good at hiding, and especially politics.

[Quincunx]

The extra layers of reality were the most annoying, when the storytellers dropped non-vampires into the vampire game. Some vampires could see into extraplanar A (astral plane via Auspex) and others into extraplanar B (through the shroud via Necromancy) where they all were hunting for something hidden in extraplanar C (the Umbra). Consider equalizing the extra layers of reality or consolidating them. It may be a rare problem but it's a game-breaker.

[Oracle_Hunter]

No, I want to do this myself! >=[

Seriously though, nWoD fixes the very problems you mention.

Question: do you actually want to "reform" oWoD or are you more interested in making your own system using oWoD fluff? If it's the latter, I recommend that you keep doing what you are doing and just ditch the rest of the oWoD mechanics.

When you're making your own rule system, only use things that help you achieve your goal. As written, none of the mechanics of oWoD contribute to your goals.

[BobVosh]

As always Kurald Galain posts very well. I agree with everything he said, and also feel that they shouldn't be balanced. Vampires have a strength over most other supernaturals: its easy, very easy, to make new ones and ghouls. Mages have the most powerful singular effects, but can't flaunt them too much.

And noone wants to be a dog. Well, werewolves are strong and can throw absolutely ridiculous amounts of dice but that works well for the fluff of WWs.

[Aron Times]

In the same way you can play 4e using 3.5 fluff, you can play nWoD using oWoD fluff.

You don't like the Spellplague? Fine, just set it a century before the current era. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Gnaeus]

Well, except that they can't. Unprepared mages are notoriously squishy; ritual magic can take rather long to cast; and a decent DM will not simply let you "get around paradox" anyway. Plus, anything suspicious will get the Technocracy on your tail, fast.

This statement = "Wizards aren't unbalanced because a good DM will not let you use (insert list of 100 most broken spells)."

Paradox is easy to get around, by at least half a dozen methods I can think of off the top of my head. Mages can hang enough long duration rituals that they never need to be unprepared. It runs just the same as in 3.5. Vampires (Rogues/Bards) and Werewolves (Melee) advance linearly, Mages advance exponentially.

Only the technocracy is remotely a balancing factor, and smart mages can hide very effectively. The technocracy couldn't care less if random Traditions mage obliterates elder vampires or garou or other monsters from ranges that no one else can even detect them. The traditions mage is only doing the technocracy's work for them by purging reality of the supernatural outlier.

The extra layers of reality were the most annoying, when the storytellers dropped non-vampires into the vampire game. Some vampires could see into extraplanar A (astral plane via Auspex) and others into extraplanar B (through the shroud via Necromancy) where they all were hunting for something hidden in extraplanar C (the Umbra). Consider equalizing the extra layers of reality or consolidating them. It may be a rare problem but it's a game-breaker.

+1. Consolidate Astral/Umbra/Dark Umbra and game works much better.

[Yuki Akuma]

I notice how you don't tell us what these half a dozen methods are - just that you can think of them.

Go on. Wow us.

[mostlyharmful]

1. use Talismans rather than straight effects
2. use spheres where powerful effects are coincidental (Mind and Spirit are all but certain to be ok)
3. build a sanctum and either do stuff there or link effects to Correspondance and hide from the backlash
4. get Prime good and high and use Paradox charms
5. bind Spirit minions to either do the job for you or as fetishes
6. adventure in areas of the Tellurian where most magic is coincidental (Umbra, horizon, deep whatever, etc).

[Kurald Galain]

This statement = "Wizards aren't unbalanced because a good DM will not let you use (insert list of 100 most broken spells)."

No, it is the exact opposite. Paradox is a rule that limits a mage's power, and a good DM will enforce this rule. Those broken spells are a rule that breaks the mage's power level, and a good DM will veto or houserule this.

Paradox is easy to get around, by at least half a dozen methods I can think of off the top of my head.

Such as what?

Mages can hang enough long duration rituals that they never need to be unprepared. It runs just the same as in 3.5.

Most spells in 3.5 require one standard action. Most spells in MTA require several minutes of chanting. Also, a 3.5 wizard has way more spell slots than a MTA mage has quintessence. There's almost zero similarity between a D&D mage and an Order of Hermes adept, even.

Vampires (Rogues/Bards) and Werewolves (Melee) advance linearly,

In the Elder's Handbook, or indeed several high-ranked garou gifts, there is lots of exponentiality for those poor little vampires and werewolves.

Only the technocracy is remotely a balancing factor, and smart mages can hide very effectively.

...which is why, for all intents and purpopes, they lost the Ascension war.

Yes, there is one faction that can hide very effectively. Those are the Ahl-I-Batin, the previous holders of the Correspondence seat. Now many people haven't heard of those, and indeed they're almost extinct... because they hid themselves out of existence. They became so good at hiding that the Tellurian forgot them, and so they ceased to exist. Yes, Mage is awesome that way.

[Kurald Galain]

2. use spheres where powerful effects are coincidental (Mind and Spirit are all but certain to be ok)

Just off the top of my head, (a) just because it's coincidental doesn't mean it won't cause paradox, and (b) just because mortals cannot detect it doesn't make it coincidental.

6. adventure in areas of the Tellurian where most magic is coincidental (Umbra, horizon, deep whatever, etc).

Yes, because the Umbra is such a safe place...

[Gnaeus]

Get a familiar to eat your paradox.

Operate coincidental effects only (pitifully easy).

Become a Marauder, let your paradox work for you.

Work most of your magic in another plane of existence where your freakish effects are coincidental.

Bleed off paradox regularly with minor/trivial flaws.

(NWOD only) Take it as bashing damage.

Sorry, That was only 5, not 6. But I haven't played in years and don't have my books here. I know there were others I can't recall right now.

Thanks Mostlyharmful, I knew I was missing some.

[Gnaeus]

Just off the top of my head, (a) just because it's coincidental doesn't mean it won't cause paradox, and (b) just because mortals cannot detect it doesn't make it coincidental.

A point or 2 of paradox is meaningless. Trivial paradox flaws are nothing. Oh dear, my watch is running backwards.

[Kurald Galain]

Get a familiar to eat your paradox.

That works, but it works slowly. It doesn't in any way make you ignore paradox, any more than having access to a good hospital makes you ignore wound levels.

Operate coincidental effects only (pitifully easy).

Those can still cause paradox, they're just less likely to. And, of course, the more powerful effects tend to be highly vulgar (which is, after all, the point). If you're in battle for your life, you can easily need a vulgar explosive fireball, and worry about the consequences later.

Become a Marauder, let your paradox work for you.

Marauders are antagonists, just like Antediluvians, Oracles, Nephandi, and Incarnae. They are not intended for players, and as far as I know there's no rules anywhere for becoming them.

More to the point, marauders are also frighteningly insane, highly visible, and an immediate target for heavy-duty hit squads from Technocracy, Tradition Council, Vampire politics, and Garou elders. Good luck with that.

Work most of your magic in another plane of existence where your freakish effects are coincidental.

Yes, that works, but not where you need it. Also, other planes were dangerous to get to even before the Avatar Storm.

Bleed off paradox regularly with minor/trivial flaws.

I'm unaware of any flaws that let you do that. If anything, an effect that lets you bleed of paradox would be a seven-point merit because of its power level.

(edit) ah, you meant the other kind of flaws. This is, however, under the DM's control: you can't just voluntarily replace paradox points by something that doesn't hinder you much.

[Gnaeus]

...which is why, for all intents and purpopes, they lost the Ascension war.

And yet there are still plenty of oracles living in pocket planes doing their crazy oracle stuff.

Yes, there is one faction that can hide very effectively. Those are the Ahl-I-Batin, the previous holders of the Correspondence seat. Now many people haven't heard of those, and indeed they're almost extinct... because they hid themselves out of existence. They became so good at hiding that the Tellurian forgot them, and so they ceased to exist. Yes, Mage is awesome that way.

Yeah, I can beat a 20th level wizard in D&D too, with another 20th level wizard. Completely different power scale than every other White Wolf game. Oh, and if you are going to use the Technocracy as an antagonist, remember that they don't like Vampires, Werewolves, and other supernaturals EITHER, and none of those creatures has a prayer of stopping a technocrat.

[Kurald Galain]

And yet there are still plenty of oracles living in pocket planes doing their crazy oracle stuff.

The Horizon Chantry would like a word with you.

Oh, and if you are going to use the Technocracy as an antagonist, remember that they don't like Vampires, Werewolves, and other supernaturals EITHER, and none of those creatures has a prayer of stopping a technocrat.

Werewolf Guide to Messing with Technocracts. Have a nice day

[mostlyharmful]

Just off the top of my head, (a) just because it's coincidental doesn't mean it won't cause paradox

er, yes it does. That's what being coincidental is all about. Do it right and you DONT generate paradox.

, and (b) just because mortals cannot detect it doesn't make it coincidental.

However the books all saying that it is does mean it's a stretch for a ST to hand out the paradox points for it.

Yes, because the Umbra is such a safe place...

Bit's of it are. most of it's not. That's why mages generally don't hang out there unless they're powerful. The Umbra is not the only place to hang your pointy hat. Horizon realms are mage specific, paradox all-but-free and full of interesting stuff....

Edit:

Werewolf Guide to Messing with Technocracts. Have a nice day

I own it. It's not that good. Either for corporate espionage or for Garou tactics versus Pentex, Shadowrun's a far far better place to drum up ideas.

[Gnaeus]

Those can still cause paradox, they're just less likely to. And, of course, the more powerful effects tend to be highly vulgar (which is, after all, the point). If you're in battle for your life, you can easily need a vulgar explosive fireball, and worry about the consequences later.

If you think that the vulgar fireball is one of a mages most powerful effects, It is clear why you think mages have problems with paradox. Forces is the evocation of OWOD. Much better to rewrite the enemies mind, or curse them with bad luck, or get a friendly spirit to blast your enemies.

[Caliphbubba]

This entire premise confuses me. I've ran and played in many, many, many games that have used the oWoD as a whole with very few, if any problems with compatibility.

Each type of supernatural is powerful in its own right.

The mythologies of each supernatural fit fine with one another with slight tweaking.

I wish you luck in this, but really I doesn't seem broken to being with so any fix is going to be a whole new beast rather than a fix.

[Kurald Galain]

er, yes it does. That's what being coincidental is all about. Do it right and you DONT generate paradox.

If you botch it, however...

However the books all saying that it is does mean it's a stretch for a ST to hand out the paradox points for it.

Well, for starters, you explicitly get paradox for vulgar magic even without witnesses. Then there's the domino effect. So yes, if your mind reading actions would make a sleeper think "OMG I don't believe this!!!", then you can get paradox even if there's not an actual sleeper witnessing it (although yes, with witnesses it's worse). That's what paradox means: the universe at large not believing your actions.

Horizon realms are mage specific, paradox all-but-free and full of interesting stuff....

Yes, but some of the interesting stuff can kill you. More importantly, the existence of an extraplanar region where you can cast at will doesn't help you if your city is under attack.

So that's the thing. Yes, you can take measures to limit paradox, and doing so is what makes a mage effective. No, you can't just ignore paradox at will. It also doesn't make mages uber-powerful in wiping out kindred or garou in single combat.

I own it. It's not that good. Either for corporate espionage or for Garou tactics versus Pentex, Shadowrun's a far far better place to drum up ideas.

True enough, it's not a very good book. But my point is that Garou can do meaningful strikes against Pentex, if they can stop infighting long enough to pull it off. The fact that Garou aren't extinct yet means that the Technocracy isn't as good as wiping them out as they'd like to be.

If you think that the vulgar fireball is one of a mages most powerful effects, It is clear why you think mages have problems with paradox. Forces is the evocation of OWOD. Much better to rewrite the enemies mind, or curse them with bad luck, or get a friendly spirit to blast your enemies.

I don't, it's just a random example. However, the examples you give are just as much vulgar magic.

[Gnaeus]

If you botch it, however...

Easily avoided by PCs.

The fact that Garou aren't extinct yet means that the Technocracy isn't as good as wiping them out as they'd like to be.

Or that the technocrats have enough other stuff to do that they can't be bothered to give garou their full attention.

I don't, it's just a random example. However, the examples you give are just as much vulgar magic.

No, they are all coincidental. Have you even played mage?

[JeenLeen]

I play Mage, and I've played a little Vampire and read Mage, Vampire, and Werewolf.

From all I've heard, at character creation it usually goes Mage < Vampire < Werewolf. A single starter garou could slaughter a cabal of starter mages. As they progress, mages become more powerful because of the versatility and exponential power of their Spheres.

Mages can use Quintessence to lower the difficulty in using magic, but their actual 'spells/day' are limitless; Quintessence could be reworked to be like that, mages needing access to a node to replenish their power (or it happens over time, perhaps linked to their Avatar ranking). Gifts and Disciplines do spend points and someone can run out of them.

The 'fluff' of WoD is important to balance. Mystic mages would be all-powerful, if not for the Consensus which generates Paradox and the Technocracy. As for competing mythologies, I think one of the intriguing things about WoD is that each supernatural group has their own view of reality. I don't know if any book declares what is the actual truth, or if there even is an actual truth (reality is relativitistic in WoD, as Mage proves since the Consensus changes), but that vampires, mages, and garou (and I assume the other groups) all have a fundamentally different view of how the world works and was created seems a nice part of the system.

To get back to the OP: if he wants to design a system based on the ideas of WoD but with a more balanced feel, all supernaturals would need to be reworked a bit. It probably would be good to give Mages some sort of 'spend points' that limit how much magic they can do a day. Maybe read the Sorcerer book to see how static magic works; I believe some of their spells use Willpower as the 'spend point'.

Games that mingle oWoD supernaturals can work. It should just be understood that all supernaturals have different points-of-view and are not balanced mechanically. But the OP wants to craft a system that is akin to oWoD but balanced. It might not be necessary, and maybe nWoD is an answer, but let's lend a hand.

[Gnaeus]

To get back to the OP: if he wants to design a system based on the ideas of WoD but with a more balanced feel, all supernaturals would need to be reworked a bit. It probably would be good to give Mages some sort of 'spend points' that limit how much magic they can do a day. Maybe read the Sorcerer book to see how static magic works; I believe some of their spells use Willpower as the 'spend point'.

My recommendation for balancing mages is to put the brakes on dynamic magic. They don't need (IMO) a spells/day limitation, they need a "I can't do it just because I can convince my DM what spheres it falls into" limitation. Make rotes easier and casting off the cuff hard. There are lots of ways to get there (increase paradox for non rotes significantly, make them take longer to cast, increase difficulties) and it still won't prevent mages from doing anything (they would just have to spend more xp on rotes) but it would slow the curve on their exponential growth chart and allow the DM to predict what powers the mages will actually use.

[Yuki Akuma]

My recommendation for balancing Mages is playing nWoD.

Wherein every spell costs at least one point of mana unless you learn it by rote, in which case you can't cast it if you're gagged and/or bound...

[AmusingSN]

My suggestion is to pick one of the oWOD game systems (I suggest vampire) and have that be your base rules.

Come up with rules for the other supernatural creatures based on the vampire template: their powers would be arranged in the 1-5 dot discipline system.

Mages could use a variation of Thaumaturgy, expending willpower instead of blood points.

Ghosts could be constantly stuck in astral projection forms.

Werewolves could use a version of protean, animalism, potence, fortitude, celerity.

Everyone would have humanity.

It's relatively simple. I actually worked up rules for this a long time ago, I'll try to dig them up and share them if there's any interest.