Psion vs Wizard, fight. 3.5

[Grifthin]

Taking Into account all wealth, nasty tricks anything goes by the rules. Straight Wizard 20 and Straight psion 20. Who wins. Who's likely to get initiative, Who's best prepared, who kills who first ?

I say wizard. Buddy says Psion. What does the playground think ?

[mostlyharmful]

Wizard without turning it into a cheese slinging match, there's just so much more splatlove for the core classes unfortunately.

[PId6]

If anything goes, it depends on who can Pun Pun first, which just gets meaningless pretty fast.

Without infinite loops, wizard wins. Despite psion's better action economy abuse, higher level psionic powers just can't compete with higher level spells. There's no psionic equivalent of Gate or Astral Projection, for example. Wizard wins for sure.

[Eldan]

Which is weird, actually. Just talking by the fluff, shouldn't Astral Projection be just the kind of thing a Psion does?

[PId6]

Which is weird, actually. Just talking by the fluff, shouldn't Astral Projection be just the kind of thing a Psion does?

They have plenty of ways for astral travel, some starting much earlier than wizard, in fact. However, the exact spell itself, which duplicates your equipment and pretty much gives you free lives, rightfully does not exist in psionics.

[Aharon]

It depends on how you treat the 3.0 psionic handbook, actually.
Many believe the Expanded Psionic Handbook to be a complete rewrite, despite it's name thel "If it wasn't changed, you can still use it" clause. If you ditch that assumption, many powers like Astral Projection are, RAW, still in the game.

There are also some Psionic Calling Powers, though they are admittedly not as powerful as gate (Sardior's True Calling gets you a mature adult Gem Dragon).

Also, Psion 20 can get out Powers with ML 60 with those stones in one of the eberron books, I don't think wizard 20 has access to ways to raise his caster level that far.

In the end, I guess the Wizard still wins, Psionics doesn't have anything akin to MDJ.

[Gnaritas]

In the end, I guess the Wizard still wins, Psionics doesn't have anything akin to MDJ.

That is assuming you rule magic=psionic right? or can you Dispel Psionic effects even you rule magic!=psionic?

[Eldan]

They have plenty of ways for astral travel, some starting much earlier than wizard, in fact. However, the exact spell itself, which duplicates your equipment and pretty much gives you free lives, rightfully does not exist in psionics.

I know it doesn't, and that's much too good. But Astral Projection... from the top of my head, I remember three or four fantasy novels where it was done, and it comes up in a lot of real-world practices. And the link to psionics is pretty obvious.
And yes, it really shouldn't be in D&D like this. At least the projected body shouldn't be an exact copy of the real one, more like a scout form.

[Prodan]

Also, Psion 20 can get out Powers with ML 60 with those stones in one of the eberron books, I don't think wizard 20 has access to ways to raise his caster level that far.

Not to disappoint you, but... they kinda do.

[Eldan]

If we allow all kinds of cheese... I think I saw a trick somewhere for near-infinite caster level.

Also, Taint, for infinite attributes.

[J.Gellert]

Without infinite loops, wizard wins. Despite psion's better action economy abuse, higher level psionic powers just can't compete with higher level spells. There's no psionic equivalent of Gate or Astral Projection, for example. Wizard wins for sure.

While that's definitely true, I like to think that there is a certain point beyond which any extra power is "overkill". Yes, the Wizard can kill you with a Gate, but can't the Psion kill the Wizard just as dead with something lesser?

In other words, the wizard may have nukes, but doesn't the psion have enough TNT to still be able to blow him up?

PS. I've never really bought into the whole Psionics thing so I'm more curious than anything.

[Aharon]

@Gnaritas
That is the usual assumption, yes.

@Prodan
Not disappointing me at all. What are you thinking of? I know casters have ways to boost their CL to hell, I didn't know generic wizards can. Or are you thinking about something like UMD'd consumptive field?

@Eldan
I'm not familiar with taint, I thought that's what the tainted sorcerer uses. Other classes can do that, too?

[Optimystik]

3.5 Psionics has taint too - see also, Subverted Psion.

Also, I agree that a Psion cannot stand up to a Wizard - too many cheesy spells they cannot get. However, the Psion can at least do the Save Game Trick to keep himself from dying, and he is much better able to find the Wizard.

Now, An Erudite, on the other hand...

[9mm]

draw actually, because at total high level cheeze both are flat out unkillable.

[Nero24200]

It woudl depend wholly on the level of cheese. With high levels, the fight is kinda moot, since both can abuse the rules like crazy.

However, a wizard or psion made with what you would reasonably expect to see in a game? My money would go on the wizard, just because of the spells known, spells automatically becomming more powerful with level (since psions rely on augmentation) and core metamagic reducers, not to mention problematic spells (such as 3.5 polymorph). Psions have problematic powers as well, but wizards have alot more.

Having said that, this assment relies on both characters being something you'd reasonably expect to see in a typical D'n'D game. If the characters are build purely for the purposes of this fight or some such, then it becomes alot harder to say.

[Eldan]

Well, if we go full on Tippy, the game becomes so broken that no one really can win anymore. It probably ends at around the point where all planes are destroyed save for a little bit where the fight happens, and even then someone would manage to turn back time or something to escape.

Basically, as soon as they start throwing around antimatter railguns, endless hordes of wishing minions and small planets from the safety of other planes, it's pretty much impossible to ever end this.

[Saph]

While that's definitely true, I like to think that there is a certain point beyond which any extra power is "overkill". Yes, the Wizard can kill you with a Gate, but can't the Psion kill the Wizard just as dead with something lesser?

In other words, the wizard may have nukes, but doesn't the psion have enough TNT to still be able to blow him up?

This is pretty accurate, yeah. In practice caster vs caster fights depend almost completely on the skill of the players involved and the amount of preparation and cheese that's being used. Arguing about whether a wizard is "better" than a psion is fairly meaningless because you can build both in so many different ways.

[Eldan]

The question pretty much becomes "who can get the other's defenses down first, or find an attack the other is not prepared for."

So... if the wizard is projecting from his private demiplane while shielded against divination, what can the psion do?

[NEO|Phyte]

So... if the wizard is projecting from his private demiplane while shielded against divination, what can the psion do?

Find him anyway.

[Optimystik]

Find him anyway.

Exactly - Psionics is very good at playing detective.

[AtopTheMountain]

At high levels like this, it can basically come down to who fails a save first, depending on the tactics they use.

Psion: Decerebate!
Wizard:Made my saving throw. Imprisonment!
Psion: Made my saving throw. Microcosm!
Wizard: Made my saving throw. Finger of Death!
Psion: Made my saving throw. Fuse Flesh!
Wizard: Made my saving throw.

Etc.
Sound familiar?

[tyckspoon]

So... if the wizard is projecting from his private demiplane while shielded against divination, what can the psion do?

Drag out the Manual of Planes, find something with the ability to sever a silver cord (there's got to be a few astral-predator type critters that can do it), and True Metamorph.

[balistafreak]

So two Tier 1 classes walk into a bar...

[Fouredged Sword]

Whoever gets off a good shot first. Depending on the arena it could be as simple as who wins initiative. Both can pump out more damage than the other's HP. Also it depends if there is psionic transparency or not and if the psion and mage are decked out to fight the other specificly.

[Adumbration]

Whoever gets off a good shot first. Depending on the arena it could be as simple as who wins initiative. Both can pump out more damage than the other's HP. Also it depends if there is psionic transparency or not and if the psion and mage are decked out to fight the other specificly.

Both also have the ability to become immune to hitpoint damage for significant periods, so it isn't that simple.

I'd imagine that Dispel psionics followed by a couple of Ego Whips would be Psion's first order of tactics. (With all the due action-economy-breaking buffs, of course.)

[Optimystik]

So two Tier 1 classes walk into a bar...

Psion is actually Tier 2 - can still break the game, but more limited in terms of how.

Erudite is the one you want, and even then it has to be one of the three variants.

[Flickerdart]

Psion can just "save game" and do the duel as many times as he wants. Wizard can Astral Project new dudes and do the duel as many times as he wants. Everybody gets to win and lose a whole bunch of times before they get bored.

[Rothen]

So two Tier 1 classes walk into a bar...

What bar? I only see a botomless pit that leads to 9 different demiplanes.

But yeah. Not much point to this discussion, as this depends on so many factors, like saving throws, tactical decisions, etc.

There's no definite way to predict the outcome of this duel, although I'd personally say the wizard has a slightly better chance of winning thanks to all the splatbooks.

[Salbazier]

Psion is actually Tier 2 - can still break the game, but more limited in terms of how.

Erudite is the one you want, and even then it has to be one of the three variants.

Erudite... Complete Psionic, right? Why it is more broken and what are the three variants?

[Flickerdart]

Erudite... Complete Psionic, right? Why it is more broken and what are the three variants?

The worst offender is the Spell to Power Erudite, who can know all spells as well as powers, and thus use the Wizard's tricks against him in addition to Cleric, Druid, Bard and other exclusive spells, and all powers. Oh, and he doesn't have to prepare any of these, he can whip them out on the fly.