"Paladin" assistance needed, 3.5

[Rosalinath]

Currently I am trying to create a proper, powerful holy warrior. this is in response to one of my friends statements that all paladins, no matter the build, are weak. I plan to prove him wrong and I need assistance.

Optimization Build:
The idea currently is this: Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5(CC)/Anoited Knight 9(BoED) +2 LA for, hopefully, the Saint Template.

Roleplay Build:
the idea for this characters is this: Kind hearted, peaceful, protective woman. Focuses on the goodness in people and doesnt simply hunt evil.

Character "code": Pending, accepting help eagerly.

She will be Lawful Good and worships the Celestia pantheon as a whole. Equipment selection is up in the air, as are domains. Any advice? comments? suggestions?

[gbprime]

For the build you're looking at, Fist of Raziel is a better exalted class than Anointed Knight. Constant magic circle, 9/10 spellcasting, full BAB, lots of extra smite power.

Consider taking the Protection Devotion to be able to give all nearby friends more AC.

[Telonius]

Unless I'm misunderstanding, this build kind of proves his point. It doesn't contain any levels of Paladin. Or was the argument just over "holy warrior" classes in general? If that's all it is, you can introduce him to Clericzilla.

[Keld Denar]

Advise...PUMP CHA. Cha is well utilized in this build. Saint, Cleric, and OC all run on Cha. More Cha means more Turn Undead attemps, which power many Devotion feats (Complete Champion), Divine feats (Complete Divine/Warrior/others), your OC smitage, and many of your Saintly abilities.

Probably as important, if not MORE important than Wis in this build. Str should be at least 13 (for Power Attack), Dex should be 10-12 (facilitates investment in full plate eventually), and Int should be whatever's left.

As for feats, depending on whether you want to go DMM (Divine Metamagic). If you do, ONLY go DMM, get Power Attack, and focus the rest of your feats on Extra Turning and your DMM prereqs, etc. If you don't go DMM, other good feats for you would be Awesome Smite (CChamp) to add some neat abilities to your OC Smitage, Law Devotion (CChamp), a REALLY strong attack bonus booster, Divine Might (CWarrior) for +cha to damage, Travel Devotion (CChamp) for free movement, Holy Warrior (CChamp, +dmg equal to highest War domain spell you have preped).

Obviously you don't want to tax your TU too much. For example, you should probably take EITHER Law Devotion or Divine Might. You CAN take both, but you'll be hemoraging TU attemps really fast that way. One or the other will suffice, with Law Devotion generally being the stronger one unless your Cha is in the 30s. Others like Awesome Smite or Holy Warrior don't use TU attempts directly, so they should be picked up regardless.

Best bet would be to read up on some of the stuff I've listed and then formulate a list of feats you want, and we'll critique it from there.

[Mando Knight]

Currently I am trying to create a proper, powerful holy warrior. this is in response to one of my friends statements that all paladins, no matter the build, are weak. I plan to prove him wrong and I need assistance.

You can build a fairly strong single-class Paladin who's not just a ClericZilla wannabe... even though they will be anyway, since Cleric is that strong.

Such a Paladin depends on three things: Smite Evil, the Divine Might feat, and the Mount. A Divine Might-boosted Smite while charging on a Mount and Power Attacking for however much you feel comfortable with is a pretty hefty blow, one that doesn't take a round of buffing to use.

[Rosalinath]

I'll do some research on the suggested items the idea is to buff/heal then SMITE!

The point behind this is that my friend thinks that all paladins are blood drunk hunters who can be killed by a kitten (which actually happened in our past campaign). So Im trying to prove that a warrior of the exalted persuasion can be both mighty and not crazy.

Im thinking about focusing on CHA, maybe even convert some npcs as apostles. Maybe take the glory and war domains. For DMM I'm still debating over that.

[PId6]

The point behind this is that my friend thinks that all paladins are blood drunk hunters who can be killed by a kitten (which actually happened in our past campaign).

I see housecats have moved on from simply slaughtering commoners.

[Kaiyanwang]

I see housecats have moved on from simply slaughtering commoners.

*points at the camera*

the next one, could be you...

[paddyfool]

You may want to consider a dip in Prestige Paladin (one level gets you Smite, Detect Evil, full martial weapon proficiency, full BAB and a D10 hit die at the cost of, er, a slightly worse will save; three levels get all the rest of the main Paladin abilities, but costs you a caster level), and if you want to cheese it out, Battle Blessing is your friend for life.

[Optimystik]

*points at the camera*

the next one, could be you...

*Camera pans out to show a flabbergasted Truenamer*

For the build you're looking at, Fist of Raziel is a better exalted class than Anointed Knight. Constant magic circle, 9/10 spellcasting, full BAB, lots of extra smite power.

Consider taking the Protection Devotion to be able to give all nearby friends more AC.

This. Anointed Knight is a very bad choice - no spellcasting.

The one bad thing about FoR is that the magic circle the class gets will be overwritten by that from your Saint Template. (Also, the dead feat - Servant of the Heavens sucks.)

[Machiavellian]

I love pseudopalys. My fave is to use Divine Crusader, FoR, and 1-2 levels of Annointed Knight to be the "Battle Saint"

[Coidzor]

The point behind this is that my friend thinks that all paladins are blood drunk hunters who can be killed by a kitten (which actually happened in our past campaign).

Did it happen to be a devotee of Snuggles?

[Pluto]

I'd drop 3 levels in Prestige Paladin.
(Cleric 4/OC 3/PP 3/FoR 10 isn't half bad.)

Because if you're trying to make a point about Paladins, you might as well have the word on your character sheet somewhere. Otherwise, you could just play an Artificer or Wizard as a devoted do-gooder, which seems like cheating.

[PId6]

I'd drop 3 levels in Prestige Paladin.
(Cleric 4/OC 3/PP 3/FoR 10 isn't half bad.)

I'd do 4 or 5 levels of Prestige Pally. You lose another caster level, but gain access to Sword of the Arcane Order, making you a mystic theurge that's actually good.

[Kaiyanwang]

*Camera pans out to show a flabbergasted Truenamer*

dun-dun-DUUUUNN!

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'd do 4 or 5 levels of Prestige Pally. You lose another caster level, but gain access to Sword of the Arcane Order, making you a mystic theurge that's actually good.

why do you need so manylevels of prestige paladin?

[PId6]

why do you need so manylevels of prestige paladin?

Sword of the Arcane Order requires paladin 4. The 5th level is just because, since it advances spellcasting anyway.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sword of the Arcane Order requires paladin 4. The 5th level is just because, since it advances spellcasting anyway.

Oh right... hmmm sounds like a nasty build

[J.Gellert]

First of all, Paladins are awesome. Don't let anyone say otherwise! They are clearly evil to speak such heresy.

Now the above suggestions are great, but if you want, you can also go more "purely" combat-paladin and make an ubercharger... Charging smite, Rhino's Charge, and some Cavalier along the way.

[Greenish]

I'd do 4 or 5 levels of Prestige Pally. You lose another caster level, but gain access to Sword of the Arcane Order, making you a mystic theurge that's actually good.

It might be worth it for some builds, but the Holy Warrior feel the OP is looking for tends to kinda fade when you're casting wizard spells from your spellbook.

[PId6]

It might be worth it for some builds, but the Holy Warrior feel the OP is looking for tends to kinda fade when you're casting wizard spells from your spellbook.

Nah, couldn't be.

Also look into the Bone Knight PrC! It has the word 'Knight' in the name, so you know it's just great for paladins of law and good!

[Dusk Eclipse]

Nah, couldn't be.

Also look into the Bone Knight PrC! It has the word 'Knight' in the name, so you know it's just great for paladins of law and good!

I see what you did there and I aprove

[DragoonWraith]

The Paladin is among the worst-designed classes in 3.5. That's an absolute fact. They do get some pretty sweet support in some places though (Spell Compendium gives them some decent spells to cast, and Battle Blessing auto-quickens them, which is insane. Divine Might's quite good too). The main problem is that Paladin ends at basically 5; there's nothing worth staying in the class for after that. Actually, the only class feature that's really interesting is Divine Grace, but whatever.

But as for not-Paladins paladins, the Crusader is an excellent class, and it's a single class, if that might help your argument.

[Greenish]

Also look into the Bone Knight PrC! It has the word 'Knight' in the name, so you know it's just great for paladins of law and good!

I do love me some Bone Knight. They got the Law down pretty well, at least.

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[Navigator]

I just got done playing an Ordained Champion-ish character up to level 17:
Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 3/Fist of Raziel 10

Build Advice

• My personal opinion is to focus on Strength, but keep your Charisma high. You only need enough Wisdom to cast your spells, and Constitution is important as always
• Ordained Champion looks really pretty and sounds cool, but it's not worth it unless you're getting your two fighter feats at first level. If you are, then taking it up to third level isn't a bad idea, but if you can find something better take it. Taking all five levels of Ordained Champion is a trap. Don't forget that you lose your spontaneous healing abilities at first level!
• Fist of Raziel is a must. You aren't going to find any better unless you look into Tome of Battle's Ruby Knight Vindicator.
• Instead of Cleric 4, take a dip into Church Inquisitor (assuming you're using fractional BAB), and possibly more later
• If you need to find a way to get another domain power to sacrifice for Ordained Champion, Contemplative is an option, but it'll prevent you from taking Ordained Champion until 12th level
• Divine Oracle will give you an extra domain at 1st and evasion at 2nd, but will hurt your BAB a little and cost you a feat

Feats to Think About

• Power Attack + Divine Might: This is pretty much non-optional, unless you're focusing on DMM
• Holy Warrior: This is a fantastic damage boost if you have the War Domain
• Knowledge Devotion: If you have the skill points to spare after Concentration and Spellcraft, this can be a very strong option
• Zen Archery
• Practiced Spellcaster
• Awesome Smite
• Divine Shield
• Parrying Shield: Will shore up your inevitable low touch AC, if you're concerned about that kind of thing. Works well if you cast greater magic vestment on your shield every day

Some Good Items

• Tooth of Savnok: Gets rid of the movement penalty for heavy armor, making adamantine armor much more attractive (2,000g!!)
• Gloves of War: Great damage boost for having a deity with the War domain (4,000g)
• Crystal of Arrow Deflection: Keep shoring up that low touch AC
• Crystal of Alacrity: +5 ft. morale bonus to speed. With this and your new tooth, you'll have 45 ft. of movement in adamantine fullplate without even trying (5,000g)
• Truedeath Crystal: No miss chance vs. ghosts, blinking enemies
• Corsair's Eyepatch: It's a bit harder for you to see invisible enemies than arcanists, and you don't want to have to cast true seeing every time. Also helps with miss chance (3,000g)
• Circlet of Rapid Casting: So you can cast divine favor as a swift action (15,000g)

Spells

• Knight's Move: Teleport to a flanking position as a swift action. Second level spells don't get better than this... except maybe close wounds
• Righteous Wrath of the Faithful + Recitation: Both are great buffs for you and your party if you have a prep round or have nothing better to do
• Ring of Blades: Can be fun if you don't have to heal anyone in a hurry

[lsfreak]

Add to feats Law Devotion and Travel Devotion. Both fit for a 'paladin' and both are very good. I prefer Law Devotion to Divine Might, personally, unless you're just swimming in spare Turn Undead.