Hybrids [4e]

[Thajocoth]

It's my understanding that Hybrids are generally underpowered.

I have the following houserules (some are irrelevant to Hybrids, but I'm listing them all):

Spoiler

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* Unless you're doing something stupid, I ignore encumbrance.
* A quiver or equivalent contains essentially infinite ammo
* All forms of money are fluidly interchangeable. Example: If I give you 3 Astral Diamonds, in Astral Diamonds, so you now have 30,000gp, and you need to spend 10gp in residuum on a ritual, you now have 29,990gp. Money never counts towards encumbrance.
* You may choose to ignore any of the above if you wish to make things difficult for yourself, but I will not be keeping track of these minor things.
* Free Implement, Weapon or Versatile Expertise feat.
* If you gain skill training in the same skill twice (such as from a multiclass feat), which normally doesn't stack, the second time may count as Skill Focus in that skill.
* If you want to retrain multiple things at a given level, ask and I might allow it. Maybe.
* If you are playing a Hybrid class, you may select the Hybrid Talent feat twice, but must select the second benefit from the second class. If you take the Paragon Path after taking the feat twice, instead of getting the feat a 3rd time, you get a free bonus feat to spend on something else.

So, I was thinking about adding: If you take a Hybrid class, you get the Hybrid Talent feat once for free. I was wondering if people think doing this would be overpowered or balanced.

[AstralFire]

Anyone want to verse me on what makes Hybrids weaker? Still learning the system. I found my Cler/Bard pretty snazzriffic.

[Thajocoth]

Anyone want to verse me on what makes Hybrids weaker? Still learning the system. I found my Cler/Bard pretty snazzriffic.

Well, it's my understanding that you can't optimize them to the same point as you can with pure classes, and they tend to be more MAD keeping you from starting with an 20 in your primary ability score, which most people I play with do. Almost everything keys off your ability to hit, so starting with less means doing nothing much more often. Also, you tend to wind up with two different to-hit bonuses, which is more to keep track of, making people less likely to play them.

You're also only benefiting from one class or the other at any given time, and not from everything a character of that full class would be benefiting from at the time. I'm not really aware of ways to combine benefits from two separate Hybrid classes into good combinations.

[Swordgleam]

Anyone want to verse me on what makes Hybrids weaker? Still learning the system. I found my Cler/Bard pretty snazzriffic.

Part of it is the role thing. Cleric and bard are both leaders, so you're just adding ways to do your leader role. But hybridizing between two different roles makes you suboptimal at both, and 4e somewhat expects a certain level of competence in each role.

[Doug Lampert]

Anyone want to verse me on what makes Hybrids weaker? Still learning the system. I found my Cler/Bard pretty snazzriffic.

They're not neccessarily weaker, but it's a lot easier to screw up a hybrid than a single classed character.

Your Cleric/Bard gets half the healing from two leader classes, so he's a leader and not really any better at it than any other leader (well, you get to choose between a few extra HP and a slide the first time you heal someone, I guess that's good, but one healing power adds Wis and the other Cha so it's likely they're weaker than a single classed characters equivalent powers).

Then half your character's attack powers use Cha, and the other half use Wis or Str, so he's MAD.

I'm not sure about implements, but I think unless you spend a feat you need a weapon, a holy symbol, and an instrument (aka three items rather than a single weapon or implement).

At level 16 or so when the other clerics get another healing word a day you get to cry in your beer.

None of this is a disaster, and you've got a nice set of utility powers to choose from, but I have to question whether it's really even as good as a straight bard or cleric with a multiclass feat into the other. Especially given that Bards can use Charisma with their multiclass attack powers.

[AstralFire]

Weapon and a holy symbol, and I'm running with 18 Cha/Wis at level 3, so could be worse, I think? (If anyone wants to give me advice on how to build my character, I'll stop derailing this thread.)

[Tengu_temp]

Hybrids are as MAD as you let them be. The best idea is to have both of your classes use the same primary attribute, preferably the same secondary attribute if possible (or one's primary is the other's secondary and vice versa and start with 18 in each), and to stick to either an implement or a weapon, not both. For example, it's a good idea to add either Barbarian or Cleric to a strength-based class: the former will increase your damage with high [w] powers, the latter will give you extra healing, including healing attacks. All of your powers still base on weapons, and choose correct ones and your MAD does not increase at all.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Seems balanced, unless the hybrid combines 2 classes of the same role (single role hybrids are not underpowered).

[Kurald Galain]

It's my understanding that Hybrids are generally underpowered.

I agree, and this appears to be the consensus of the charop board as well. However, the key word here is "generally". There are a few hybrid combinations that are very strong, and for these, your houserules on hybrids appear inappropriate.

Anyone want to verse me on what makes Hybrids weaker? Still learning the system. I found my Cler/Bard pretty snazzriffic.

That depends on what you mean by "snazzriffic", but I would wager that starting from high heroic levels, this character is less effective than either a straight cleric or a straight bard. Doug gives a few good reasons why; a simple example is that at level 16, either straight class gets three heals per encounter, whereas your hybrid does not.

Note that "less effective" does not mean "worthless", and that an underpowered character is generally not so much below average that it's no longer worth playing.

Seems balanced, unless the hybrid combines 2 classes of the same role (single role hybrids are not underpowered).

I do not believe it is that simple. For instance, a ranger|rogue has the problem that he can never use Sneak Attack and Hunter's Quarry damage on the same attack (and can use neither on basic attacks), which begs the question why he would need to have both SA and HQ. A multiclass character would be able to use both.

[AstralFire]

To derail again - Bard, mc Cleric? or Bard//Cleric?

[Draz74]

To derail again - Bard, mc Cleric? or Bard//Cleric?

I believe the standard punctuation to use for 4e Hybrids is Bard | Cleric.

[Kurald Galain]

To derail again - Bard, mc Cleric? or Bard//Cleric?

I meant straight bard (MC'ing to e.g. sorcerer), or straight cleric (MC'ing to e.g. paladin or warlord).

[AstralFire]

Just asking which was preferable of the two. I understood you. -nods- I like the union of the two classes flavor-wise and the mechanical assortment of powers I have.

[Kurald Galain]

Just asking which was preferable of the two. I understood you.

Oh sorry. I'd say the cleric is the better healer, and the bard is better at moving things around on the battlefield.

But sure, a c|b sounds like a fitting and workable combination. I'm sure there's a few hybrids out there that are really counterproductive, such as mixing a class that has to be at range (e.g. seeker) with one that has to be in melee (e.g. fighter).

I find that if I say that I do not recommend hybrids, then this turns away precisely those people that probably shouldn't be playing a hybrid, and that people with the experience to make it work reasonably well are not deterred. $.2

[AstralFire]

20 cents? My, what inflation!

Thanks. Yeah, think I'll stick with the C|B. Just trying to learn what I can.

[Tankadin]

There was a pretty fun sounding Darth Vader build that was a hybrid Swordmage|Warlock. Both classes can just load Int and Con, and Warlocks have some very sexy defender powers. The defenses looked more than a little scary.

The MAD thing was brought up, so if your hybrid can avoid that, like the aforementioned Swordmage|Defenderlock, then things can get pretty cool.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I haven't had a chance to put this into practice, but I theorize some of these builds can be played a lot better than their numbers make them sound. It's not about the numbers, when you're talking about hybrids. Hybrids are all about versatility. They let you do more things in two classes, sacrificing pure power to do it. Of course hybrids are underpowered when you're measuring pure power. The question is, how much of that power do they gain back in versatility?

And that's pretty hard to quantitatively measure.

[Swordgleam]

The question is, how much of that power do they gain back in versatility?

And that's pretty hard to quantitatively measure.

The problem with that is that 4e is a lot about niche protection. So if you're hybriding two roles in a 4 person party, you're simultaneously stepping on someone else's toes and failing to pull weight at your own role. Theoretically.

[Zaq]

I've noticed that one of the biggest problems with Hybrids is keeping your defenses (especially AC) up to snuff. To use a tiny bit of math terminology, you get the union of your weapon/implement proficiencies, but the intersection of your armor proficiencies (that is, you're proficient with a weapon/implement if either class has it, but you're only proficient with armor if both classes have it). More often than not, you have to spend your Hybrid Talent on one class's armor proficiency or other AC-granting feature, leaving the cool and iconic features as, basically, traps. (Case in point: a hybrid Warden will almost never have Font of Life, because if they don't spend HT on the Warden secondary-stat-to-AC ability or their other class's AC-granting feature, they likely just won't have the armor to do their job as a defender.) Which is sad, but that's the way the system is written. Then, since it's hard to line up your secondary stats, your other defenses often suffer a little bit as well. So hybrids often end up being kinda squishy compared to other classes. There are, naturally, exceptions (a Wizard|Psion has no problems with defenses, for example, nor does a Fighter|Paladin...) to the rule, but as a whole, you have to work to get a Hybrid's defenses to be on par with their single-classed counterparts.

[Meta]

It's usually broken down like this:

60% of hybrid combinations are bad news
30% are good examples of what can be done and are a success
10% are much stronger than either of the single classes that comprise it

[Thajocoth]

10% are much stronger than either of the single classes that comprise it

Can you give an example of some combination that does this? I don't just mean "Class A | Class B", I mean what about the 2 classes happens to synergize well to create a powerful combination? It looks impossible given the absolute separation in the Hybrid rules...

[Meta]

Can you give an example of some combination that does this? I don't just mean "Class A | Class B", I mean what about the 2 classes happens to synergize well to create a powerful combination? It looks impossible given the absolute separation in the Hybrid rules...

Sure thing.

Deva Wizard|Avenger/Academy Master/ Soul of the World

Relevant Feats: Distant Vengeance, Arcane Mastery, Reaper's Touch
Powers: Wizard's Fury, Quicksilver Stance, Magic Missile
Equipment: Opal Ring of Rememberence, Greater Ring of Spell Storing

Encounter 1: Activate Wizard's Fury and Quicksilver Stance. 3 magic missiles a turn.
Encounter 2: Use action Point to get Fury back, ring of spell storing to get quicksilver
Encounter 3: Action point for Fury, Opal ring for quicksilver

With distant vengeance that's 3 MM's a round with oath of emnity reroll
Take minimal avenger powers (final oath is a great one, threatening strike for the encounter perhaps, and refocus emnity for the utility)

Array:

Str: 8
Con: 10
Dex:13
Int:18
Wis:18
Cha: 11

Feats:

Heroic:
Weapon Focus (Dual Implement Proficiency)
Wintertouched
Hybrid Talent: Orb of Imposition
Distant Vengeance
White Lotus Riposte
Versatile Expertise (Draconic Spellcaster)

Paragon:
Two Weapon Fighting
Lasting Frost
Painful Oath
Paragon Defenses (Robust Defenses at 21)
White Lotus Master Riposte
Superior Implement Proficiency Accurate Staff

Epic:
Reaper’s Touch
Wizard Implement Expertise
Two Weapon Opening
Enmity’s Dark Vigor
Spell Focus
Fist of Heaven

+39 vs reflex, rolling twice
Around +50 static damage mod

Powers at 30:

At-Wills
Magic Missile
Overwhelming Strike

Utilities:
Refocus Enmity
Wizard’s Escape
Refined Recall
Blur
Ironskin
Mass Fly
Past Life Manifestation

Encounters:
Steal Time
Threatening Strike
Ice Tomb
Learned Boost

Dailies:
Master’s Surge
Quicksilver Blade
Wizard’s Fury
Final Oath

Edit: You now have a wizard that gains 5 hp a level, does great striker damage and has the oathed magic missiles and wizards fury from level 1, so is completely playable 1-30. Plus carry around a +1 orb with a fun enchantment with your frost staves for fun lockdown, made even better with say a phrenic crown and both of your -2 to saving throws epic tier feats.

I love doing the impossible

[Mando Knight]

You didn't do the impossible, you counted wrong.

Using your build and a Frost Staff to change the element of your Magic Missile to Cold, you have a +36 bonus to attack (15+9 (Int)+6 (Staff)+3 (feat)+2 (item)+1 (Sup. Imp.)) and +30 to damage (+39 to Enmity target 1/round), unless you add a Dragonshard, which boosts it by 5 at the most. Lasting Frost only grants Vulnerability 5... I don't see how you're getting a +50 damage modifier.

Compare this to the master of "F-You" damage modifiers, the Sorcerer. A sorcerer with the exact same paragon path and using Demigod, starting with 18 in both stats, a Staff of Ruin, Dragonshard, Dual Implement Caster, etc. can reach +54 damage to an at-will, and only drops down to +49 damage with other powers. Use an Incendiary Dagger or such instead of a Staff of Ruin, and it frees up the weapon enchantment and item bonus at the cost of only 2 damage.

[Thajocoth]

Sure thing.

Deva Wizard|Avenger/Academy Master/ Soul of the World

Relevant Feats: Distant Vengeance, Arcane Mastery, Reaper's Touch
Powers: Wizard's Fury, Quicksilver Stance, Magic Missile
Equipment: Opal Ring of Rememberence, Greater Ring of Spell Storing

Encounter 1: Activate Wizard's Fury and Quicksilver Stance. 3 magic missiles a turn.
Encounter 2: Use action Point to get Fury back, ring of spell storing to get quicksilver
Encounter 3: Action point for Fury, Opal ring for quicksilver

With distant vengeance that's 3 MM's a round with oath of emnity reroll
Take minimal avenger powers (final oath is a great one, threatening strike for the encounter perhaps, and refocus emnity for the utility)

Array:

Str: 8
Con: 10
Dex:13
Int:18
Wis:18
Cha: 11

Feats:

Heroic:
Weapon Focus (Dual Implement Proficiency)
Wintertouched
Hybrid Talent: Orb of Imposition
Distant Vengeance
White Lotus Riposte
Versatile Expertise (Draconic Spellcaster)

Paragon:
Two Weapon Fighting
Lasting Frost
Painful Oath
Paragon Defenses (Robust Defenses at 21)
White Lotus Master Riposte
Superior Implement Proficiency Accurate Staff

Epic:
Reaper’s Touch
Wizard Implement Expertise
Two Weapon Opening
Enmity’s Dark Vigor
Spell Focus
Fist of Heaven

+39 vs reflex, rolling twice
Around +50 static damage mod

Powers at 30:

At-Wills
Magic Missile
Overwhelming Strike

Utilities:
Refocus Enmity
Wizard’s Escape
Refined Recall
Blur
Ironskin
Mass Fly
Past Life Manifestation

Encounters:
Steal Time
Threatening Strike
Ice Tomb
Learned Boost

Dailies:
Master’s Surge
Quicksilver Blade
Wizard’s Fury
Final Oath

Edit: You now have a wizard that gains 5 hp a level, does great striker damage and has the oathed magic missiles and wizards fury from level 1, so is completely playable 1-30. Plus carry around a +1 orb with a fun enchantment with your frost staves for fun lockdown, made even better with say a phrenic crown and both of your -2 to saving throws epic tier feats.

I love doing the impossible

#1 - Reaper's Touch requires Shadar-kai
#2 - Wizard's Fury allows you to cast Magic Missile ONCE per round as a Minor. It's still otherwise a Standard, so you do not get 3 per round. You can get 2 per round by spending one Minor and 1 Standard on Magic Missiles.
#3 - Hybrid Avenger only applies their Oath's double rolling to Avenger powers, which Magic Missile isn't. It's this separation (which every Hybrid class seems to have) that makes me doubt the existence of builds that combine things from both Hybrid classes of that build to make something more powerful than either separately.
#4 - Why are you taking 2-weapon fighting? You're holding implements, not weapons. A staff CAN count as both an implement and a weapon, but only if held 2-handed.

This is ultimately weaker than the At-Will Wizard I wrote up a few days ago:

Spoiler

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Razvahn, level 30
Shadar-kai, Wizard, Academy Master, Archmage
Build: Summoner Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Wand of Accuracy
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Thunder
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Light Blade)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Wand)
Arcane Admixture Power: Magic Missile
Archspell: Wizard's Fury
Background: Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 12, Con 13, Dex 24, Int 28, Wis 12, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 11, Dex 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8.


AC: 44 Fort: 33 Reflex: 40 Will: 37
HP: 154 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 38

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +31, Nature +21, Religion +29, Dungeoneering +21

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +24, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Endurance +16, Heal +16, History +24, Insight +16, Intimidate +15, Perception +16, Stealth +30, Streetwise +15, Thievery +22, Athletics +16

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: White Lotus Riposte
Level 2: White Lotus Defense
Level 4: White Lotus Enervation
Level 6: White Lotus Evasion
Level 8: White Lotus Hindrance
Level 10: Reaper's Touch
Level 11: White Lotus Master Evasion
Level 12: White Lotus Master Hindrance
Level 14: White Lotus Master Riposte
Level 16: Oncoming Storm
Level 18: Mark of Passage
Level 20: Inescapable Force
Level 21: Arcane Admixture
Level 22: Unarmored Agility
Level 24: Versatile Expertise
Level 26: Superior Implement Training (Accurate wand)
Level 28: Long Step
Level 30: Raging Storm
Feat User Choice: Echoes of Thunder

POWERS
Wizard at-will 1: Storm Pillar
Wizard at-will 1: Magic Missile
Wizard encounter 1: Empowering Lightning
Wizard daily 1: Wizard's Fury
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Grease
Wizard utility 2: Shield
Wizard utility 2 Spellbook: Expeditious Retreat
Wizard encounter 3: Shock Sphere
Wizard daily 5: Scattering Shock
Wizard daily 5 Spellbook: Visions of Avarice
Wizard utility 6: Refocus
Wizard utility 6 Spellbook: Eyes of the Deep Delver
Wizard encounter 7: Concussive Echo
Wizard daily 9: Lightning Serpent
Wizard daily 9 Spellbook: Summon Succubus
Wizard utility 10: Repelling Shield
Wizard utility 10 Spellbook: Conviction
Wizard encounter 13: Thunderlance (replaces Empowering Lightning)
Wizard daily 15: Evard's Dreadful Mist (replaces Scattering Shock)
Wizard daily 15 Spellbook: Ball Lightning
Wizard utility 16: Practiced Mental Defense
Wizard utility 16 Spellbook: Fly
Wizard encounter 17: Thunderous Transformation (replaces Shock Sphere)
Wizard daily 19: Evard's Ebon Bindings (replaces Lightning Serpent)
Wizard daily 19 Spellbook: Oppressive Force
Wizard utility 22: Mordenkainen's Mansion
Wizard utility 22 Spellbook: Mass Fly
Wizard encounter 23: Chain Lightning (replaces Concussive Echo)
Wizard daily 25: Cinder Storm (replaces Evard's Ebon Bindings)
Wizard daily 25 Spellbook: Necrotic Web
Wizard encounter 27: Steal Time (replaces Thunderlance)
Wizard daily 29: Prismatic Wall (replaces Evard's Dreadful Mist)
Wizard daily 29 Spellbook: Summon Living Mountain

ITEMS
Spellbook, Shadowflow Starweave Armor +6, Cloak of the Phoenix +6, Bracers of Tactical Blows (epic tier), Airstriders (epic tier), Great Hero's Gauntlets (epic tier), Circlet of Indomitability (epic tier), Nullifying Ring (epic tier), Ring of Free Time (epic tier), Vengeance Sash (epic tier), Ghostwalk Tattoo (epic tier), Accurate wand of Thunderous Anguish +6
RITUALS
Brew Potion, Make Whole, Tenser's Floating Disk, Transfer Enchantment, Enchant Magic Item, Disenchant Magic Item, Remove Affliction, Song of Restfulness, Evard's Extensible Rope, True Sending, View Object, Observe Creature, Consult Oracle
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

[Mando Knight]

#1 - Reaper's Touch requires Shadar-kai
#2 - Wizard's Fury allows you to cast Magic Missile ONCE per round as a Minor. It's still otherwise a Standard, so you do not get 3 per round. You can get 2 per round by spending one Minor and 1 Standard on Magic Missiles.
#3 - Hybrid Avenger only applies their Oath's double rolling to Avenger powers, which Magic Missile isn't. It's this separation (which every Hybrid class seems to have) that makes me doubt the existence of builds that combine things from both Hybrid classes of that build to make something more powerful than either separately.
#4 - Why are you taking 2-weapon fighting? You're holding implements, not weapons. A staff CAN count as both an implement and a weapon, but only if held 2-handed.

He uses Soul of the Ages to qualify as a Shadar-Kai and Dragonborn, and to grab Quicksilver Blade to make a melee basic attack as a minor action. With Reaper's Touch, Magic Missile is now a melee basic attack. Distant Vengeance grants the Oath of Enmity bonus to ranged basic attacks, which Magic Missile is. Two-Weapon Fighting activates in the Character Builder while dual-wielding Staff implements for an unknown reason.

Weaknesses of the build: Quicksilver Blade and Distant Vengeance are mutually exclusive. Painful Oath only functions once per round. Quicksilver's bonus attack can't be used with Oath of Enmity.

[Thajocoth]

He uses Soul of the Ages to qualify as a Shadar-Kai and Dragonborn, and to grab Quicksilver Blade to make a melee basic attack as a minor action. With Reaper's Touch, Magic Missile is now a melee basic attack. Distant Vengeance grants the Oath of Enmity bonus to ranged basic attacks, which Magic Missile is. Two-Weapon Fighting activates in the Character Builder while dual-wielding Staff implements for an unknown reason.

Weaknesses of the build: Quicksilver Blade and Distant Vengeance are mutually exclusive. Painful Oath only functions once per round. Quicksilver's bonus attack can't be used with Oath of Enmity.

Magic Missile is still not an Avenger power. I'd say Distant Vengeance would allow a ranged basic with a weapon to count, but not a ranged basic from another class. So they're not gaining anything extra by being a Hybrid. The intent with the Hybrid separation is to prevent you from applying one class's stuff to the other class. Distant Vengeance's intent is for an Avenger's ranged basic to count toward Oath of Enmity. So it essentially just makes their ranged basic (with a weapon) into an Avenger power. RAI > RAW. This is specifically because of the restriction presented by Oath of Enmity (Hybrid). If you found a way to have Magic Missile At-Will with a full Avenger, I'd allow it to work. A Half-Elf could do this by taking Magic Missile as their Dilettante and Versatile Master at level 11. Then multiclass Wizard and spend another feat for Wizard's Fury... This is not worth doing if you start below 11th level though.

I'd say the two-weapon thing in the builder is a bug.

If I was DM and somebody started playing this build, once I catch it (likely to be level 1, when I see them roll twice for a Magic Missile), I'd allow them to completely retrain their character between sessions. I don't like leaving people stranded with their poor choices, especially if they were misinterpreting the rules.

[Kurald Galain]

With Reaper's Touch, Magic Missile is now a melee basic attack.

(edit) never mind, I was thinking of Sorcerous Blade Channel.

Regardless, the issue is still that hybrid re-rolling only applies to Avenger powers.

Formerly considered one of the best hybrid combinations was wizard|swordmage; however, as of the most recent errata, Enlarge Spell no longer works on swordmage powers, which makes this combo rather less effective. WOTC appears to be trying rather hard to avoid having a class power or class feat give a bonus to the other side of a hybrid.

[Mando Knight]

Magic Missile is still not an Avenger power. I'd say Distant Vengeance would allow a ranged basic with a weapon to count, but not a ranged basic from another class. So they're not gaining anything extra by being a Hybrid. The intent with the Hybrid separation is to prevent you from applying one class's stuff to the other class. Distant Vengeance's intent is for an Avenger's ranged basic to count toward Oath of Enmity. So it essentially just makes their ranged basic (with a weapon) into an Avenger power.

The text of the feat states all ranged basic attacks. Not just weapon-based ranged basic attacks. The original Oath states that only melee attacks can be used with the Oath, Hybrid Oath states only Avenger and Avenger Paragon Path melee attack powers can be used with the Oath, and Distant Vengeance states that you gain the full benefits of your Oath on all ranged basic attacks against the target of your Oath. Distant Vengeance thus wasn't made to make your RBA effectively an Avenger power (as there are Avenger powers that are ranged and cannot be used with the Oath), it was made to append an additional condition to the list of circumstances in which the Oath may be applied.

RAI > RAW.

I don't think so. Unless the intent of the rules are clearly stated (i.e. written), the intent is powerless. Writing down the rules as the rules gives them the power that the mere intent does not have. Might the feat be updated later? Perhaps.

[Kurald Galain]

The text of the feat states all ranged basic attacks. Not just weapon-based ranged basic attacks. The original Oath states that only melee attacks can be used with the Oath, Hybrid Oath states only Avenger and Avenger Paragon Path melee attack powers can be used with the Oath, and Distant Vengeance states that you gain the full benefits of your Oath on all ranged basic attacks against the target of your Oath.

So this could be parsed as either Distant Vengeance being the exception to Hybrid Oath, or Hybrid Oath being an additional limit that Distant Vengeance must also obey. I'd say either interpretation is valid, but I wouldn't count on every DM agreeing.

[Mando Knight]

So this could be parsed as either Distant Vengeance being the exception to Hybrid Oath, or Hybrid Oath being an additional limit that Distant Vengeance must also obey. I'd say either interpretation is valid, but I wouldn't count on every DM agreeing.

Well, if Hybrid Oath takes precedence over Distant Vengeance, then it's completely worthless for every Hybrid Avenger, even if it's not one that would abuse the feat (like the aforementioned build or any Seek-Venger hybrids).