Help understanding this build:

[Os1ris09]

So I found this build and I have some questions:

Human worshipper of Olidammara

Cleric 1/Warlock 1/Cleric 2/Binder 1/E.D. 5/Sacred Exorcist 1/Hellfire warlock 3/E.D. 5/Enlightened Spirit 1

Feats:
Travel Devotion[1]
Dodge[1]
Luck of Heroes*[1]
Toughness[1]
Dragontouched*[1]
Mortalbane*[2nd]
Practiced invoker [3rd]
Divine Metamagic (yes before a metamagic feat) [5th]
Extra Turning (7th)
Maximize Spell-like ability [11]
Extra Turning [12]
Quicken Spell-like Ability [15]
Extra Turning [18]

For the exact build in a chart format please follow link provided: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Eldritc...aracter_Build)

My questions are the following:
1) How does he get so many feats at 1st lvl and get his feat at 2nd, 5th, and 7th?
2) Where is the luck of heroes feat and dragontouched feat located?
3) How do you get faster healing with binder because in the link it says he gets faster healing from being a 1st lvl binder. I am assuming I am missing something entirely.

Edit: Try this link again http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Eldritc...haracter_Build

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

My questions are the following:
1) How does he get so many feats at 1st lvl and get his feat at 2nd, 5th, and 7th?
2) Where is the luck of heroes feat and dragontouched feat located?
3) How do you get faster healing with binder because in the link it says he gets faster healing from being a 1st lvl binder. I am assuming I am missing something entirely.

1. Travel devotion: Sacrifice cleric domain
Dodge: Human
luck of heroes: 1st level
Toughness: ???
Dragontouched:??? closest I can figure is at level 2 they go dragonfire adept and not warlock. . .??? but i dont think that works either
the 2nd level feat i'm also lost on. . . 5 and 7th i can only understand if they are using the pathfinder feat system maybe?

2. Dragontouched is in dragon magic. luck of hero's is in either oriental adventures or players guide to faerun

3. no idea

sorry i'm not more help. . .
also your link is broken, but i found the page with a wiki search

[IonDragon]

That link said

There is no text on this page

which is really funny because it had text telling you there was no text :P

1)He's probably getting Travel Devotion from being a Cloistered Cleric (IIRC they get an extra feat, of one of the Devotions), 2 from Flaws, and one from being Human. That's the usual way anyway.

2) Dunno off hand, try Crystal Keep

3) Naberious, the Grinning Hound. It's one of the Aspects you can manifest.

[Binks]

1. Looks like Travel Devotion is from cleric, dodge/toughness from feats (char/human), and the other two from flaws
2. Luck of Heroes is Player's Guide to Faerun pg40. No idea on dragon touched (used index to find the first one, very useful)
3. Binding...something? Buer is one example vestige that gives fast healing.

You need to move the )'s into the url for your link btw, it doesn't work right now.

(90% sure I'm going to be ninja'd . The price you have to pay for having to look this stuff up rather than just knowing it)

[Starbuck_II]

This is link: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Eldritc...haracter_Build)


Everything says it comes from:
Book of Exalted Deeds (Luminous Armor)
Complete Arcane (Warlock)
Complete Champion (Travel Devotion)
Complete Divine (Sacred Exorcist)
Complete Mage (Eldritch Disciple, Enlightened Spirit)
Dragon Magic (Invocations)
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (Destory Undead)
Fiendish Codex II (Hellfire Warlock)
Players Handbook (Cleric)
Players Handbook II (retrain)
Spell Compendium
Tome of Magic (Binder)
Unearthed Arcana (Flaws)

Dragontouched? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54264

[kamikasei]

Test link. And again: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Eldritc...acter_Build%29.
(Hmmm, not sure why others' links appeared to be going wonky.)

3) How do you get faster healing with binder because in the link it says he gets faster healing from being a 1st lvl binder. I am assuming I am missing something entirely.

From the link:
"The Naberius visage from the Binder class grants Faster Ability Healing. This means you can use your Hellfire Warlock abilities and heal the CON damage 1 round later. Consider making your CON an odd number to avoid paperwork headaches with your HPs. "

[Os1ris09]

This is link: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Eldritc...haracter_Build)


Everything says it comes from:
Book of Exalted Deeds (Luminous Armor)
Complete Arcane (Warlock)
Complete Champion (Travel Devotion)
Complete Divine (Sacred Exorcist)
Complete Mage (Eldritch Disciple, Enlightened Spirit)
Dragon Magic (Invocations)
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (Destory Undead)
Fiendish Codex II (Hellfire Warlock)
Players Handbook (Cleric)
Players Handbook II (retrain)
Spell Compendium
Tome of Magic (Binder)
Unearthed Arcana (Flaws)

Dragontouched? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54264

I saw that too Starbucks but I dont understand the following on that list. Where does he get Destroy undead from Ravenloft. Why does he retrain when it looks like he doesn't need to. The flaws I get now I just don't know which ones he used. Also it states under the persistent spells section that he has 54 turn attempts. I count that he has 21.

[Starbuck_II]

I saw that too Starbucks but I dont understand the following on that list. Where does he get Destroy undead from Ravenloft. Why does he retrain when it looks like he doesn't need to. The flaws I get now I just don't know which ones he used. Also it states under the persistent spells section that he has 54 turn attempts. I count that he has 21.

It is an alternate class feature: he loses Turn Undead for Destroy Undead (Complete Divine pg 87).

Basically, you channel energy to damage undead (instead turn/destroy them).

Found how he gets double turns:

The Destory Undead (alternate cleric class option) combined with Turn Undead (from Sacred Exorcist) will double the number of turns you can use for divine metamagic.

Basically, Extra turning boosts both abilities as RAW.

So he double dips the ability. Legal if DM counts them as seperate abilities and they are technically.

4 Extra turning = +12 each.
14 Cha + 5 Tomb + 6 Item + 5 level= 30 Cha possibly (+10 bonus)

3 + 10=13 + 12=25.

25 x2 =50.

I'm not sure where he gets the extra 4 turns from...

[Pluto]

Why does he retrain when it looks like he doesn't need to.

Because the ideal feat progression at high levels doesn't coincide with the ideal feat progression needed to get to high levels.

Mortalbane doesn't do anything for the character until he has Eldritch Blast, so it's delayed until level 2 via retraining, so the character can gain the benefit of something (in this case Dodge) until then.

I think Divine Metamagic and Extend Spell were accidentally switched.

Without Spell slots to fuel Extend, the feat's essentially wasted, so the builder took Luck of Heroes as a useful low-level fill-in until he gains some higher level spell slots to spare. Likewise, Persist is useless without Divine Metamagic, so he takes Toughness to survive low levels and switches it out for Persist at the level when he gains DMM access.

It's weird that this guy holds onto Toughness for so long, though. And that he doesn't use Silverbrow Human instead of Dragontouched for the ACF.

[Os1ris09]

@ Starbuck: OK now I see how he can get so high of a turn/rebuke undead count.

@ Pluto: Ok that makes sense why the feats are crossed out. Due to the retraining rules he uses those feats until he can get those he wants when its meaningful. Makes total sense now.

If you were to make the build and the DM said no to retraining would you just take those feats immidiately since you can't retrain.

[Pluto]

If you were to make the build and the DM said no to retraining would you just take those feats immidiately since you can't retrain.

To make it work, yes.

But if you're looking for high-powered builds on the internet, it's probably not the sort of game where you can half-ass it for 9 levels waiting for the build to mature.

[Os1ris09]

To make it work, yes.

But if you're looking for high-powered builds on the internet, it's probably not the sort of game where you can half-ass it for 9 levels waiting for the build to mature.

Care to elaborate on your comment. I think I understand it but I am lost on what you mean half-ass.

Also my DM ruled out that fast healing cannot "heal" the con damage you recieve from Hellfire Warlocks improved EB. With that in mind would you still try for the build to work just buy a wand of restoration and use it to heal the damage.

[Starbuck_II]

Care to elaborate on your comment. I think I understand it but I am lost on what you mean half-ass.

Also my DM ruled out that fast healing cannot "heal" the con damage you recieve from Hellfire Warlocks improved EB. With that in mind would you still try for the build to work just buy a wand of restoration and use it to heal the damage.

Wait, what is his reasoning?
Hellfire does Con damage (not drain).
Naberius cures Con damage (not drain).

Is he nerfing it for a reason?

If you still want to play with the nerf: yeah just buy the wand. But the DM should have a better reason than just because.

[Prime32]

Also my DM ruled out that fast healing cannot "heal" the con damage you recieve from Hellfire Warlocks improved EB. With that in mind would you still try for the build to work just buy a wand of restoration and use it to heal the damage.

Fast healing doesn't heal ability damage, but Naberius doesn't grant fast healing. It grants an ability which heals ability damage.

[Os1ris09]

Wait, what is his reasoning?
Hellfire does Con damage (not drain).
Naberius cures Con damage (not drain).

Is he nerfing it for a reason?

If you still want to play with the nerf: yeah just buy the wand. But the DM should have a better reason than just because.

The reasoning is because of the Spam of the enhanced EB. Basically he doesn't want me to be abusing the system or become Overpowered.

[gorfnab]

The reasoning is because of the Spam of the enhanced EB. Basically he doesn't want me to be abusing the system or become Overpowered.

If you want something close to overpowered for an ED build then you would be looking at Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 10/ Hellfire Warlock 3.

[Starbuck_II]

The reasoning is because of the Spam of the enhanced EB. Basically he doesn't want me to be abusing the system or become Overpowered.

You should have more Bloodlines if you want Enhanced EB.
Bloodline levels stack with Hellfire for Hellfire Warlock damage (6 class levels than= 12d6 damage instead of 6d6).

[Os1ris09]

You should have more Bloodlines if you want Enhanced EB.
Bloodline levels stack with Hellfire for Hellfire Warlock damage (6 class levels than= 12d6 damage instead of 6d6).

So how does this work? I dont understand....

[Starbuck_II]

So how does this work? I dont understand....

Hellfie Blast damage is based on Class level.
Bloodline levels says they stack with any class level for calculations.

3+3=6 (basic math).
The damage is 2d6/class level. (2d6) x6 =12d6 added to eldritch blast instead of 6d6 when using Hellfire.

Bloodlines:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm

[Os1ris09]

Hellfie Blast damage is based on Class level.
Bloodline levels says they stack with any class level for calculations.

3+3=6 (basic math).
The damage is 2d6/class level. (2d6) x6 =12d6 added to eldritch blast instead of 6d6 when using Hellfire.

Bloodlines:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm

"Include the character’s bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn’t gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected. If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities."

Maybe I am misunderstanding it but the way I am reading it and with what I know of the Hellfire Warlock class feature the levels wouldn't stack because Bloodline levels are not Hellfire Warlock levels and the added blast damage isn't dependent on the level of the class just like a regular warlocks blast isn't dependent on lvl. I could be totally wrong also. I mean the EB does increase every odd lvl for a regular warlock so theoretically the Hellfire blast added damage would increase with each bloodline level just like CL is increased by the Bloodline level.

[aeauseth]

This is actually my build that I'm playing in a campaign. It looks like most of your questions have been answered. I dropped a domain to get the Travel Dovation. The retraining can be tricky, but helps at lower levels. The fast ability healing is indeed based on Binder/Naberius. It is from tomb of magic, and if you read it carefully you can indeed heal the CON damage from hellfire warlock. Seems odd your DM would disallow this. I have 2 more levels to go before I get Hellfire Warlock, but I don't think it is that overpowered. We have a large fighter with strongarm bracers, spiked chain, combat reflexes, improved trip doing trips all day long. I'm having trouble keeping up with him on damage.

As to the bloodline and extra levels of Hellfire Warlock? I dismissed that after reading the Epic rules on prestiege classes. You can't make an Epic progression on a class with less than 10 levels. Seemed like the bloodline scheme discussed here would break that rule. Legacy Champion has a similar mechanism that apperas to break the rule.

My DM is currently having second thoughts on the "Destroy Undead" + "Turn Undead" rule I proposed in this build. Seems legit to me. There is also an Incarnim turn feat which I didn't pursue. I hope I can present a strong argument, currently trying to scour the web on why NOT to allow such a thing.

[Os1ris09]

This is actually my build that I'm playing in a campaign. It looks like most of your questions have been answered. I dropped a domain to get the Travel Dovation. The retraining can be tricky, but helps at lower levels. The fast ability healing is indeed based on Binder/Naberius. It is from tomb of magic, and if you read it carefully you can indeed heal the CON damage from hellfire warlock. Seems odd your DM would disallow this. I have 2 more levels to go before I get Hellfire Warlock, but I don't think it is that overpowered. We have a large fighter with strongarm bracers, spiked chain, combat reflexes, improved trip doing trips all day long. I'm having trouble keeping up with him on damage.

As to the bloodline and extra levels of Hellfire Warlock? I dismissed that after reading the Epic rules on prestiege classes. You can't make an Epic progression on a class with less than 10 levels. Seemed like the bloodline scheme discussed here would break that rule. Legacy Champion has a similar mechanism that apperas to break the rule.

My DM is currently having second thoughts on the "Destroy Undead" + "Turn Undead" rule I proposed in this build. Seems legit to me. There is also an Incarnim turn feat which I didn't pursue. I hope I can present a strong argument, currently trying to scour the web on why NOT to allow such a thing.

So how do you "play" your character. I don't mean roleplaying wise but mechanic wise because it seems to me that I dont do a whole lot besides my 2-4 buffs and say ok here comes the annoying 1d6 poke..... poke.....poke.

Also on retraining how much "time" did you spend to retrain your feats? I mean doesn't it make the party unhappy when you have downtime and can't do things?

[Kylarra]

Most of the time you just handwave downtime for when everybody does their downtime thing...

[olentu]

Er well it seems from my quick review that one could stack destroy undead and turn undead but the alternative class feature specifically says that if a feat requires the expenditure of turn undead attempts it instead consumes uses of the destroy undead ability. So one could presumably gain both abilities but for any one feat only one of the abilities attempts would be able to be consumed by the feat at any one time as any one feat can not as far as I can tell both require and at the same time and under the same conditions not require an expenditure of turn undead attempts.

[Os1ris09]

Er well it seems from my quick review that one could stack destroy undead and turn undead but the alternative class feature specifically says that if a feat requires the expenditure of turn undead attempts it instead consumes uses of the destroy undead ability. So one could presumably gain both abilities but for any one feat only one of the abilities attempts would be able to be consumed by the feat at any one time as any one feat can not as far as I can tell both require and at the same time and under the same conditions not require an expenditure of turn undead attempts.

ok you totally lost me with this one but lets see if I understand.

You are suggesting that you can use the destroy undead abilities for any expenditure of divine feats due to the wording of the ACF and you can not use the turn undead attempts from Sacred Exorcist to fuel those feats?

[Boci]

The reasoning is because of the Spam of the enhanced EB. Basically he doesn't want me to be abusing the system or become Overpowered.

You're doing damage once per round that if just behind the base damage of a rogue's sneak attack. Unless you're group is incredably bad at optimizing you can reasure him that the game won't be broken.

I allow my player's to full attack with EB in a tier 3 game and it wasn't overpowered.

[Os1ris09]

You're doing damage once per round that if just behind the base damage of a rogue's sneak attack. Unless you're group is incredably bad at optimizing you can reasure him that the game won't be broken.

I allow my player's to full attack with EB in a tier 3 game and it wasn't overpowered.

These particular players you are refering too...... ya they are not optimized in anyway. We have a paladin trying to do something with Turn undead while her feats are power attack and cleave and she hasn't selected her 6th lvl feat. Whilst I have a half orc barbarian who is pretty good with feat selection. Power Attack Leap Attack and improved bull-rush going for Shocktrooper. then we have the druid who doesn't even know his own name........

Hope this answers your questions as to why it may be construded as OPed

[Boci]

These particular players you are refering too...... ya they are not optimized in anyway. We have a paladin trying to do something with Turn undead while her feats are power attack and cleave and she hasn't selected her 6th lvl feat. Whilst I have a half orc barbarian who is pretty good with feat selection. Power Attack Leap Attack and improved bull-rush going for Shocktrooper. then we have the druid who doesn't even know his own name........

Hope this answers your questions as to why it may be construded as OPed

At level 12, which is the hight of the hellfire warlocks power in comparison to other classes, you can do on average 42 damage per round (just don't take maximize spell like ability). The barbarian can do 36 damage from power attack alone on a charge, and he has numerous more ways to boost his damage than you do.

It is common for people to overestimate the value of a bunch of d6s, I did it as well the first time I looked at a rogue.

As for the druid, she doesn't need to know his own name, just wildhsape, a decent selection of spells and natural spell.

[aeauseth]

So how do you "play" your character. I don't mean roleplaying wise but mechanic wise because it seems to me that I dont do a whole lot besides my 2-4 buffs and say ok here comes the annoying 1d6 poke..... poke.....poke.

For the first 3 levels I did 1d6 damage with my EB. Not so exciting but I did about the same damage as our fighter. He did 1d8+3 in melee. It takes him a round to engage and didn't hit everytime. I was able to do damage 90% of every round because of my range and touch attack.

Basic mechanics are to attack every round. I keep moving toward the enemy to attempt to engage in melee. The ranged attack has -4 if a party member is threating my foe, thus melee and Eldridch Glaive is preferred. If necessary activate Travel Devoation to get an extra move action for 1 minute.

I'm currently level 9 and I do 6d6 damage and have a fly 45ft (Persisted Footsteps of the Divine + Elation). 10d6 with use/day items. I have 17 turns. I can persist a total of 4 spells. My other persisted spells are Lesser Mass Vigor, and Lesser Visage of the Deity. I paid an NPC for Enlarge Person w/Permanency so I have a 20ft reach. Typically I fly 10' above the ground which gives me a 15' reach. I still do about the same amount of overall damage as our fighter.

We fought a golem which I was unable to affect due to Spell Resistance. This will be a continual issue for me. Assey Spell Resistance will help with SR in general, but golems or anything with magic immunity will continue to be an issue until level 15 (Vitriolic Blast). I haven't scoured my Cleric spell list to see if I have a good non-SR based damage spell (any suggestions?)

My understanding of Gauntlets of Eldritch Thunder is that all damage is converted to sonic, but the foe still gets their SR. Worked great for the swarm I fought though!

Here is a link to my Level 3 character: http://aaronwiki.us/images/d/d5/Eldo...26D_3.5%29.pdf

Here is a link to my Level 9 character before I purchased the Chausuble of Fell Power: http://aaronwiki.us/images/3/3b/Eldo...26D_3.5%29.pdf

Here is a link to my AC guide. My original goal was to keep my AC in the same range as a typical fighter, but with flight I've decided my AC isn't as important anymore. http://aaronwiki.us/index.php?title=Armor_Class_Guide

[Os1ris09]

@ Boci -- So how would you present your argument.... I mean I don't really have a reason it should be allowed BUT the only time I would actually use it is if I needed the extra firepower OR I needed to do a super duper HEAL shot to an ally.

@ aeauseth -- I did the exact same thing. Except I have only 11 turn attempts by lvl 6 and I haven't taken any flaws because I don't know which ones to take. I was thinking the -X to melee and -X to reflex for the bonus feats to go with the fluff of Cloistered cleric and since I have been shooting range. This is if DM will let me. Otherwise how do you get your characters sheets like you did? By typing it in there because that isn't myth-weaver style.

AS far as spells that don't allow SR.......

Honestly I can't think of any...... I know it sucks. But hey your large already get a greatsword and take the penalty to hit. Bcuz you have divine power already just go to town and take it out the hack and slash way