[3.5] Best playable Dragon?

[Flickerdart]

Fact: Dragons are awesome.
Fact: Dragons have lots of HD so the players don't kill them immediately.
Fact: Dragons have lots of LA because they're so awesome.
Fact: This makes Dragons unplayable.

What age categories of what dragons balance the awesomeness and the LA/RHD? The lowest ECL dragon (White Wyrmling, ECL5) sucks horribly compared to even an LA0 PC race, never mind a 5th level character, but it does get three different movement modes which is cool.

Are there any better playable Dragons?

[Saph]

Several people on these boards have worked up playable Dragon monster classes, I believe.

[RelentlessImp]

Dragonwrought Kobolds and Spellscales are great LA+0 Dragons. So are Dragonborn, now that I think about it.

But if you want an ACTUAL dragon... a wyrmling gold dragon isn't TOO bad.

[Flickerdart]

I don't like resorting to homebrew (I can homebrew up my own dragon class if I need to) unless the system doesn't support anything at all that's similar to what I want. Wyrmling Gold is ECL12 for some stat boosts and not much else.

[Octopus Jack]

Dragonwrought Kobold Dragonfire Adept...

[Saph]

The problem is that Dragons were never designed as playable characters. The fact that they advance by aging rather than by XP is a bit of a hint in that respect.

So most of the effective ways to play a Dragon tend to involve cheating, somehow. For example, playing a spellcaster and then Wild Shaping or Polymorphing yourself into one.

[Jair Barik]

Working with your DM to maybe remove the LA a Very young Shadow dragon could work, perhaps as scouty type/skill monkey/sneaky person. Breathe weapon bestows a negative level, counts as complete concealment in anything other than full on daylight and all of its mental stats are pretty good. Immunity to energy drain, small size and a +10 NA.

[Greenish]

Dragonwrought Kobolds and Spellscales are great LA+0 Dragons. So are Dragonborn, now that I think about it.

But if you want an ACTUAL dragon... a wyrmling gold dragon isn't TOO bad.

Dragonborn and spellscales are merely dragon-blooded humanoids, like silverbrow humans (& Co). Dragonwrought kobolds are at least dragons.

[The_Snark]

The Abyssal Drake (found in the Draconomicon) is not technically a true dragon—I believe it's actually a blend of wyvern, red dragon, and demon—but it's the closest you'll get to playing a dragon as a huge, terrifying beast. It's ECL 15, so it's not for low levels, but you get impressive stat boosts, Huge size, flight, a bevy of natural attacks, a breath weapon, frightful presence... all the usual dragon stuff, minus spellcasting. It actually makes for a pretty solid melee character.

[Starbuck_II]

Fact: Dragons are awesome.
Fact: Dragons have lots of HD so the players don't kill them immediately.
Fact: Dragons have lots of LA because they're so awesome.
Fact: This makes Dragons unplayable.

What age categories of what dragons balance the awesomeness and the LA/RHD? The lowest ECL dragon (White Wyrmling, ECL5) sucks horribly compared to even an LA0 PC race, never mind a 5th level character, but it does get three different movement modes which is cool.

Are there any better playable Dragons?

Sand Dragon?
ECL 5 for Wyrmling (HD 3)
ECL 8 Very young (HD 6)

Flaywind is untyped damage (sand).

You could just play a Dragonborn (Insert Race here).

Shadow Dragon (abilities are good but LA sucks)
ECL 7 for Wyrmling (HD 4)
ECL 10 Very young (HD 7)
Negative levels (Reflex for 1/2)

Pyroclastic Dragon (abilities are good but LA sucks)
ECL 11 for Wyrmling (HD 7)
ECL 15 Very young (HD 10)
Disintegrating breath or 1/2 fire + 12 Sonic breath.

[arguskos]

The monster progressions in Dragon #332 are pretty decent. Only the Chromatic five exist, but it'd be fairly straightforward to get the Metallics if you so wished (goes off to work out progressions for the Orange and Purple).

[Oslecamo]

I don't like resorting to homebrew (I can homebrew up my own dragon class if I need to) unless the system doesn't support anything at all that's similar to what I want.

Well copper and brass have the lowest LAs. I've seen the second in play and just 2 lost levels aren't that bad in return for flying, save-or-die breath, and tiny size has it's advantages.

Granted, you'll be playing a skirmish lizard and not a huge fire breathing beast.

Eeerr, wizard and draconic polymorph?

[Jair Barik]

Sand Dragon?
ECL 5 for Wyrmling (HD 3)
ECL 8 Very young (HD 6)

Flaywind is untyped damage (sand).

You could just play a Dragonborn (Insert Race here).

Shadow Dragon (abilities are good but LA sucks)
ECL 7 for Wyrmling (HD 4)
ECL 10 Very young (HD 7)

But you wouldn't really want to play a shadow dragon wyrmling. One of its best abilities it only gains as very young (shadow blend) and as the wyrmlings breath DC is only 13 its likely that even mooks will be saving against it (that said any young dragons breath weapon is likely to be ignored at higher levels as they don't scale but against mook hoards of 1 HD its ncie to force a DC 16 save or die)

[Ormur]

Improved monster classes by Oslecamo.

Makes dragons an other monsters playable in high powered campaigns.

[Starbuck_II]

But you wouldn't really want to play a shadow dragon wyrmling. One of its best abilities it only gains as very young (shadow blend) and as the wyrmlings breath DC is only 13 its likely that even mooks will be saving against it (that said any young dragons breath weapon is likely to be ignored at higher levels as they don't scale but against mook hoards of 1 HD its ncie to force a DC 16 save or die)

Breath Weapon DC doesn't negate, it reduces the amount. Granted, it says round down so successful save means no negative level.

It is almost Enervation as a breath weapon.

[Mystic Muse]

I believe all dragon breaths are based off of a specific stat and then age category so I think it does go up with level if you can boost CON.

[Jack_Simth]

Are there any better playable Dragons?

The Pseudodragon (+2 LA, 2 RHD) isn't too bad, if you're playing a stealth-centric character.

Really, though, if you want to play an actual Dragon, you're well-served to find a Gestalt game - one where the DM lets LA and RHD fill a single side of the progression, just like class levels (which gets rid of most of the disadvantages of a high-LA race).

I believe all dragon breaths are based off of a specific stat and then age category so I think it does go up with level if you can boost CON.

DC is 10+ 1/2 RHD + Con Modifier.
The damage/area is based on age category.

[nekomata2]

Dragons of Faerun has Mercury and Steel dragons, which, for wyrmlings, have 3 and 4 RHD, and both have a LA+2, not too bad. Plus Steel dragons have the hilarious property of always smelling like wet metal in their dragon form.

[AslanCross]

I believe all dragon breaths are based off of a specific stat and then age category so I think it does go up with level if you can boost CON.

Damage only scales by age category; the DC goes up with both age category and is modified by CON.

At high levels, a wyrmling will still be dealing wyrmling damage. Not very impressive.

[Mystic Muse]

Damage only scales by age category; the DC goes up with both age category and is modified by CON.

The second is what I meant. Sorry if that was unclear.

[Eldariel]

Whatever it is, Wyrmling is always] the best bet. First, Dragon HD grows faster than their power (and CR) so you'll get diminishing returns as you have to take Dragon HD as levels (which, of course, can't fit multiple HDs per level), and second, the LA grows for each age category. As such, minimizing the number of these extremely inefficient "dragon levels" you have to take is the best.

Some Wyrmlings are quite playable. If you use the various draconic templates and company (Dragons of Eberron & Draconomicon-stuff), you should be fine. Frankly, the best Dragon you could get though is getting one as Mount/Leadership Cohort/Animal Companion. It's pretty standard for Supermount which gains insane amounts of HD, and it just so happens Dragon HD doesn't suck, so it's pretty useful overall. You can get a Young one this way, with ~50-odd HD.

[Glimbur]

The Ambush Drake racial class isn't terribad... 7 ECL for 7 HD. Their breath weapon is kind of funky but they are dragons.

[Starbuck_II]

Ambush Drakes have LA -, not 0 in Monster Manual 3.
Breath Weapon: 30 ft cone, Slows, 7 rd, DC 17 Will negate.

That link is just CR.

Sadly, they aren't playable.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Ambush Drakes have LA -, not 0 in Monster Manual 3.
Breath Weapon: 30 ft cone, Slows, 7 rd, DC 17 Will negate.

That link is just CR.

Sadly, they aren't playable.

Check the errata. That or the wizards site, as there may have been a promo for MM3 where they threw up the racial class.

[Starbuck_II]

Nope. Check errata, it skips them. Goes right to Arcane ooze.

This is Website:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040905a

This site is adding levels not at level 4:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a

Look at Level 4? It has 11 HD, CR 9 and 4 Scout Classes.

The Fight club was not for players but WotC staff to fight against each other.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Nope. Check errata, it skips them. Goes right to Arcane ooze.

This is Website:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040905a

This site is adding levels not at level 4:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a

Look at Level 4? It has 11 HD, CR 9 and 4 Scout Classes.

The Fight club was not for players but WotC staff to fight against each other.

Well, I'll be damned. Looks like it actually doesn't have a valid LA to it. Shame, too. Eh, there's always Kobolds then.

[Darrin]

The monster progressions in Dragon #332 are pretty decent. Only the Chromatic five exist, but it'd be fairly straightforward to get the Metallics if you so wished (goes off to work out progressions for the Orange and Purple).

The metallic dragons were actually published first in Dragon #320. The gold dragon is the most playable: medium size for levels 1-15, and at level 4 they get Alternate Form (Su), which allows them to change into any animal or humanoid form. This would allow them to masquerade as another character, maybe pretending to be a fighter or some other mundane class. Silver dragons also get Alternate Form (Su) at level 8, but start out small for levels 1-13.

[LibraryOgre]

The Pseudodragon (+2 LA, 2 RHD) isn't too bad, if you're playing a stealth-centric character.

Seventeen posts for someone to mention the most awesome of dragon races? For SHAME, GitP Boards! For SHAME!

[arguskos]

The metallic dragons were actually published first in Dragon #320. The gold dragon is the most playable: medium size for levels 1-15, and at level 4 they get Alternate Form (Su), which allows them to change into any animal or humanoid form. This would allow them to masquerade as another character, maybe pretending to be a fighter or some other mundane class. Silver dragons also get Alternate Form (Su) at level 8, but start out small for levels 1-13.

Really? I don't have 320, need to go find a copy somewhere. *goes hunting online for a print copy* Thanks for the heads-up.

[Tytalus]

Wyrmling steel dragons are quite nice (use Wyrm of War archetype for a decent ToB build), as are wyrmling mercury dragons for their incredible maneuverability.

The Pseudodragon (+2 LA, 2 RHD) isn't too bad, if you're playing a stealth-centric character.

That wouldn't be too bad, but the LA is actually +3.