Mad Foam Rager (3.5)

[Weezer]

The feat Mad Foam Rager (PHII) allows you to:

...delay the effect of any one spell, attack or ability used against you.

for one turn as an immediate action.

How can this wording be interpreted. If you have grease cast on the square you are in can you use this feat and then move out of the grease on your turn what happens when delay ends. Are you effected by the grease spell as if you hadn't moved or what? It seems to be a very ambiguously worded feat.

[gallagher]

The feat Mad Foam Rager (PHII) allows you to:

for one turn as an immediate action.

How can this wording be interpreted. If you have grease cast on the square you are in can you use this feat and then move out of the grease on your turn what happens when delay ends. Are you effected by the grease spell as if you hadn't moved or what? It seems to be a very ambiguously worded feat.

i think that it is intended to mean the effects of a spell would occur later, like a delayed damage pool, instead of teh effects of you stepping on a slippery part of the floor

[Seffbasilisk]

Grease isn't cast on you. It's cast on the floor.

[Weezer]

Grease isn't cast on you. It's cast on the floor.

But the feat doesn't say "cast on me" or "targeting me" it says one that effects me. I think it's pretty obvious that I am effected by Grease when it forces me to make a reflex save or fall down.

i think that it is intended to mean the effects of a spell would occur later, like a delayed damage pool, instead of teh effects of you stepping on a slippery part of the floor

I agree that's RAI for it to just affect things like damage but RAW it's all effects.

[TheLaughingLich]

"Used against you" - the exact wording in the book - does not appear to be a well-defined phrase, but I would tend to interpret it as meaning the feat's user must be among the targets of the attack, spell, or ability. Amusingly, the feat does appear capable of delaying multi-target effects like Chain Lightning on people other than the feat's user, since it alters "the damage or effect" of the attack, spell, or ability, rather than the effect on you.

[The Glyphstone]

Have we found Iron Heart Surge's primordial ancestor?

[Keld Denar]

Have we found Iron Heart Surge's primordial ancestor?

Better. When you use them together, it gets around most of the effects that would normally disallow you to use IHS. If you were held, you couldn't move, and thus couldn't activate any manevuers, and thus couldn't use IHS to end it. If you were dominated, you would not be in control of your own actions, and thus couldn't decide to use IHS to end the effect.

MFR allows you to delay the effect for 1 round. Its still on you, and thus you can IHS it off, but the effect doesn't impedete your ability to remove it. Its awesome.

[Weezer]

MFR allows you to delay the effect for 1 round. Its still on you, and thus you can IHS it off, but the effect doesn't impedete your ability to remove it. Its awesome.

Well now I didn't even think about that combo, that is pretty awesome. Makes me wonder why I've never seen this suggested as a feat, I've used it a couple times in arena play but I've never seen anyone else use/mention it.

[The Glyphstone]

Well now I didn't even think about that combo, that is pretty awesome. Makes me wonder why I've never seen this suggested as a feat, I've used it a couple times in arena play but I've never seen anyone else use/mention it.

Mainly cause IHS is the crazy uncle of ToB. In an otherwise awesome book, it's the part that everyone knows, but doesn't like to talk about because of all the arguments it causes.

[Glimbur]

Also, the combo requires a combination of significant investment in ToB or a high level dip, and rage. Sure, it happens, but if you're raging you can't use sweet sweet Diamond Mind maneuvers (those with concentration anyway), for example.

[Darrin]

Better. When you use them together, it gets around most of the effects that would normally disallow you to use IHS. If you were held, you couldn't move, and thus couldn't activate any manevuers, and thus couldn't use IHS to end it. If you were dominated, you would not be in control of your own actions, and thus couldn't decide to use IHS to end the effect.

MFR allows you to delay the effect for 1 round. Its still on you, and thus you can IHS it off, but the effect doesn't impedete your ability to remove it. Its awesome.

By adding a 1-round delay (and thus giving the effect something like a duration), does this also allow IHS to work on effects that normally don't have a duration, such as ability damage/energy drain?

[Starbuck_II]

By adding a 1-round delay (and thus giving the effect something like a duration), does this also allow IHS to work on effects that normally don't have a duration, such as ability damage/energy drain?

Yes, I do think so.

[Runestar]

Why wouldn't iron heart surge work on instantaneous effects which don't disable you, such as lv drain or ability damage?

But great for otherwise crippling effects such as petrification. I wonder, can it counter a finger of death?

[Keld Denar]

<snip> When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately.

So, if you are affected by an intantaneous effect (normally not applicable for IHS), you delay it by 1 round, thus giving it a duration of 1 or more rounds. So...yea, I guess you could do that.

[Runestar]

It sounds too good to be true, IMO. Or would it be that the duration of the effect remains unchanged, just that it won't take place until 1 round later?

[Weezer]

Sure, it happens, but if you're raging you can't use sweet sweet Diamond Mind maneuvers (those with concentration anyway), for example.

This just gave me an idea, could you use MFR to stop your rage for one round to temporarially get rid of rage so you can cast spells or do something normally disallowed by rage. I would think that rage is an ability used on you, it says nothing about harmful abilities.

[SurlySeraph]

It says "ability used against you." I don't think you can say that your character's rage can be said to be be used against him, unless someone casts the Rage spell on him or his backstory involves schizophrenia.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Chiming it to say, GJ OP

The IHS+MFR combo seems very sexy, however it wouldn't change the duration of said effects. Readied actions seem like the way to go to me.

[Another_Poet]

In case the answer to Weezer's question was lost amidst this IHS talk, I'm just popping in to say:

The wording, IMHO, means that you can delay a targeted effect of which you are the target.

So if someone casts Grease on you (to make you make a Ref save or drop your weapon, for instance) you can delay it one round. Next round you still have to make your Ref save or drop your weapon.

If grease is cast on the area you are standing, it is not a targeted effect, so you cannot delay it.

[Person_Man]

MY interpretation is that it's basically delays any harmful effect used against you by 1 round. But it wouldn't stop Chain Lightning from continuing on it's path, or an area of effect from effecting others. And if someone hit you with an effect with a non-instantaneous duration, the effect would actually have to harm/effect you for 1 round before you could use Iron Heart Surge. So:

Round 1: Barbarian/Warblade goes into a Rage and kills some mooks. (It's important that he's not Flat Footed, otherwise he wouldn't be able to use an Immediate Action for this example). Then it's an enemy Wizard's turn, and he casts Hold Person on the Barbarian/Warblade, and he fails the Save. But he uses Mad Foam Rager as an Immediate Action to delay the effect by one round.

Round 2: Barbarian kills Wizard, which means the Wizard's Hold Person no longer exists (this is another house rule, I think. But we've always played it that way). If Barbarian fails to kill Wizard, Hold Person kicks in on the Wizard's turn. Wizard (hopefully) fails to kill Barbarian/Warblade on his turn.

Round 3: Having been under the effect of Hold Person for 1 round, the Barbarian/Warblade can now use Iron Heart Surge to end it.

I know that's one big RAI with at least one house rule mixed in, but that's how I would play it.

[Runestar]

I thought a caster's spells still stay in effect even after he dies? For instance, a summoned monster shouldn't disappear just because the wizard who summoned it gets killed (though it can't be directed). Granted, if you kill the wizard before his hold person spell kicks in, being held after the battle is no biggie, since you can take all the time in the world to wait for its duration to expire without fear of reprisal.

[Keld Denar]

Round 3: Having been under the effect of Hold Person for 1 round, the Barbarian/Warblade can now use Iron Heart Surge to end it.

Only problem with this is that in order to be able to initiate a manevuer, you have to be able to move. If you can't move, you can't IHS. If you are held, you can't move. Therefore, if you are held, you can't IHS.

And IHS doesn't say it only removes effects that have been on you for 1 or more rounds, just that the duration is 1 or more rounds. If you used MFR to disregard the effects of a Hold Person spell for one round, you could, on your very next turn, IHS it off before it fully affects you. If you waited, you'd have to take your chances with the will save like any other schmuck out there.

[Chen]

Only problem with this is that in order to be able to initiate a manevuer, you have to be able to move. If you can't move, you can't IHS. If you are held, you can't move. Therefore, if you are held, you can't IHS.

Does it say you have to be able to move? I thought you just needed to be able to take the standard action to activate it.

[Starbuck_II]

Round 2: Barbarian kills Wizard, which means the Wizard's Hold Person no longer exists (this is another house rule, I think. But we've always played it that way). If Barbarian fails to kill Wizard, Hold Person kicks in on the Wizard's turn. Wizard (hopefully) fails to kill Barbarian/Warblade on his turn.

Houserule is above.
Official rule: Once you affected by a spell: it stays till you die not the caster. Barring duration running out of course.

[Person_Man]

@Starbuck

You are correct - which is why I stipulated that I had a houserule in my original post. (And I would add that it's a pretty common houserule).

@Keld

Hold Person has contradictory wording within it's own text. It says that you're paralyzed and cannot take actions, and then it says that you can take a Full Round Action every turn to attempt another Save. So I think the RAI is that Iron Heart Surge would let you spend a Standard Action to end it.


Again, I make absolutely no claim to RAW. I'm just saying how I would rule it. I don't let the poorly written rules get in the way of playing the game.

[Keld Denar]

@Keld

Hold Person has contradictory wording within it's own text. It says that you're paralyzed and cannot take actions, and then it says that you can take a Full Round Action every turn to attempt another Save. So I think the RAI is that Iron Heart Surge would let you spend a Standard Action to end it.

Note that nothing in Hold Person prevents you from taking purely mental actions, such as manifesting powers or casting Silent + Still + no material component spells. The action to break out of Hold Person is probably the same.

Manevuers, however, do have a "somantic" component. Its in the book that you have to be able to move to initiate a manevuer. I don't have the exact passage on me, but its either at the beginning of the book, or the beginning of the chapter that explains maneuvers. There is no way to "still" a manuever. No where in IHS does it say you can initiate it even if you are otherwise disabled.

Now, you could houserule it that way, but in the absense of such a house rule, Mad Foam Rager + IHS would allow you to effectively combat such effects.