Warlock Lich: Possible? [3.5]

[Optimystik]

See topic: Is it possible to add the Lich template to a Warlock character? Preferably without multiclassing or dipping?

They can easily satisfy the "Caster Level of 11th" requirement and the "Craft Wondrous Item feat" requirements, but the biggest snag I see is "must be able to cast spells" which Warlocks can't technically do.

My concept was a crafting warlock that pursued lichdom in order to spend an eternity creating magical wonders with his strange powers. But because a Lich is +4 LA, I can't afford to lose Warlock levels and still have a Dark Invocation pre-epic.

So, is there any way to cheat spellcasting onto him, arcane or divine - similar to how Hidden Talent lets you cheat manifesting onto a class that doesn't normally get psionic powers?

[RelentlessImp]

If the Warlock is an Outsider type, they can use the Lichfiend template (Libris Mortis, page 156), as they easily fulfill the 5+ at will SLA requirements by 11th level due to their invocations. Otherwise functions the same as Lich.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC there is a fet i one of the Faerun books (magical training) that let you cast 3 cantrips and a level 1 spell, and unless lich got spell level requirements I think that would sufice.

[Keld Denar]

Unfortunately, I can't think of anything short of a caster dip that'll satisfy that requirement.

If immortality is what you crave, there is always Elan, Warforged, and Necropolitan...

[RelentlessImp]

IIRC there is a fet i one of the Faerun books (magical training) that let you cast 3 cantrips and a level 1 spell, and unless lich got spell level requirements I think that would sufice.

Doesn't work. Lich requires Caster Level 11+, and that feat gives a Caster Level of 1.

EDIT:
Technically, a Warlock DOES have a caster level, so they could qualify for Lich without any workarounds.

EDIT EDIT:
Need to stop posting before coffee. Disregard earlier edit.

[Aharon]

Isn't the usual way around that prerequisite to take Magical Training?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I just realized that becoming a lich is a great idea for Warlocks!

Assuming you area devil-lock, you probably traded your soul for the powers, now you are a lich and your patron can't ask for the payment anymore!

[Aharon]

There's even a mechanical representation for that: the fiend contracts from FCII (beware, they are, unfortunately, rather broken).

[RelentlessImp]

I just realized that becoming a lich is a great idea for Warlocks!

Assuming you area devil-lock, you probably traded your soul for the powers, now you are a lich and your patron can't ask for the payment anymore!

Actually...

A devil would probably just send a hit squad of devils to take your phylactery, depending on the contract made. When you become a Lich, you're technically dead, so the soul is now theirs if it includes a clause of obtaining upon death. Just because you're now undead doesn't stop that.

[Runestar]

Doesn't work. Lich requires Caster Level 11+, and that feat gives a Caster Level of 1.

Not entirely. Lich requires that you be able to cast spells and have a caster lv of 11, not cast spells at caster lv 11. A warlock has caster lv, but cannot cast spells. Magical training lets you cast cantrips, allowing you to fulfill both prereqs of being a lich.

Though I am sure a DM will just handwave that and allow a warlock to enter lich, considering the steep requirements and limited benefits.

[Optimystik]

If the Warlock is an Outsider type, they can use the Lichfiend template (Libris Mortis, page 156), as they easily fulfill the 5+ at will SLA requirements by 11th level due to their invocations. Otherwise functions the same as Lich.

Ooh, I didn't even know about that one. I'll take a look at it, thanks!

EDIT: Hmm, read it, and it seems it requires you to be a fiend, not just an Outsider. The problem there being that if I'm a fiend, then (a) I already don't have to worry about dying of old age, and (b) there's probably all kinds of regulations/intrigue (if I'm a devil) or just plain craziness and destruction (if I'm a demon) to allow me to focus on creating anything. Not quite what I was looking for after all.

IIRC there is a fet i one of the Faerun books (magical training) that let you cast 3 cantrips and a level 1 spell, and unless lich got spell level requirements I think that would sufice.

Perfect! The best part is that the cantrips stack with my arcane caster level from Warlock (even though I don't really need them.) Exactly what I was looking for

Even the fluff fits (minus the Halruaa part, which can be handwaved.) It says the feat is typically taken by crafters, to aid them in their work. So I can use Mage Hand to move tools around the lab, and Dancing Lights for organizational/tracking purposes.

Unfortunately, I can't think of anything short of a caster dip that'll satisfy that requirement.

If immortality is what you crave, there is always Elan, Warforged, and Necropolitan...

I know these would be the easy way out, but I didn't want it race-specific... and the concept relies on a race that would normally have to worry about old age.

Doesn't work. Lich requires Caster Level 11+, and that feat gives a Caster Level of 1.

Actually, it gives a minimum caster level of 1. Now that I've read it, the feat says it stacks with my existing arcane caster level.

Also, as others have said, I don't even need the cantrips to have a CL of 11. I just need a CL of 11 and some spells, they can be completely separate if need be.

[RelentlessImp]

Ooh, I didn't even know about that one. I'll take a look at it, thanks!

Lichfiend needs more love. If you don't mind being a Frog, Neraphim would be the perfect +0LA Warlock to do it with.

[Keld Denar]

I know these would be the easy way out, but I didn't want it race-specific... and the concept relies on a race that would normally have to worry about old age.

Necropolitan isn't race specific. Its a ritual, similar to lichdom, but without the phylactery and expensive evil juju. Its in Libris Mortis, go check it out.

You could be a human necropolitan, an elf necropolitan, a dwarf necropolitan, or a half giant necropolitan. Base race isn't important as long as you are humanoid, IIRC.

[Edwin]

Actually...

A devil would probably just send a hit squad of devils to take your phylactery, depending on the contract made. When you become a Lich, you're technically dead, so the soul is now theirs if it includes a clause of obtaining upon death. Just because you're now undead doesn't stop that.

Better yet, use the fact that they now have the phylactery to blackmail the lich.

Powerful, spellcasting minion that you can order around because if they don't obey, you've got an instant I-kill-you button? For a fiend? Yes, please.

[RelentlessImp]

Better yet, use the fact that they now have the phylactery to blackmail the lich.

Powerful, spellcasting minion that you can order around because if they don't obey, you've got an instant I-kill-you button? For a fiend? Yes, please.

...Thank you for that. Someone stop me before I run a game. ><

*holds up a sign that says Please Do Not Give the Imp Campaign Ideas*

[Optimystik]

Lichfiend needs more love. If you don't mind being a Frog, Neraphim would be the perfect +0LA Warlock to do it with.

Actually, now that you mention it... it just says I need to be an evil outsider, rather than a fiend. So an Evil Neraphim Warlock could work.

*checks Planar Handbook*

Neraphim do die of old age, so my concept could still work. They live quite a long time though, so the pressure wouldn't be as high.

Necropolitan isn't race specific. Its a ritual, similar to lichdom, but without the phylactery and expensive evil juju. Its in Libris Mortis, go check it out.

You could be a human necropolitan, an elf necropolitan, a dwarf necropolitan, or a half giant necropolitan. Base race isn't important as long as you are humanoid, IIRC.

Yes, I know about them.
I agree that they're easier than Lichdom (insofar as dying is "easy" ) and I know they're more powerful, but they feel almost like cheating in a way. Though I suppose a pure Warlock, even a crafter, can use all the help he can get... and being a level behind the party will boost my crafting too, on the way up to my final destiny and whatnot. So I'll think about it...

I definitely like having the phylactery though.

Better yet, use the fact that they now have the phylactery to blackmail the lich.

Powerful, spellcasting minion that you can order around because if they don't obey, you've got an instant I-kill-you button? For a fiend? Yes, please.

Actually, they would have to kill me before breaking my phylactery would do anything. In fact, that could give me an incentive to craft - I create items to outfit adventurers, and send them to recover my bauble from the hands of the devil that gave me my powers in the first place. That would be a decent hook once my character reaches NPC status.

[J.Gellert]

Puh-leeze, you're a lich. What lich worth its salt lets devils push it around?

And anyway, even if you can't kill the devils, you can use any Divination spell (hire a cleric or wizard) to look for "Topics about 1001 ways of hiding your phylactery". Scry around playgrounds.

[Edwin]

Puh-leeze, you're a lich. What lich worth its salt lets devils push it around?

And anyway, even if you can't kill the devils, you can use any Divination spell (hire a cleric or wizard) to look for "Topics about 1001 ways of hiding your phylactery". Scry around playgrounds.

Depending on the particular Devil that granted him his power, and thus owns his soul and would be the one sending the death squad, 1d6+1 Pit Fiends getting all up in his business at level 11th?

Yeah, no more lich.

[Optimystik]

Puh-leeze, you're a lich. What lich worth its salt lets devils push it around?

One that is based on a Tier 4 class, that's who
Can a Warlock 16/Lich 4 take on even one Pit Fiend on his own? Maybe if I had enough of my toys with me...

And anyway, even if you can't kill the devils, you can use any Divination spell (hire a cleric or wizard) to look for "Topics about 1001 ways of hiding your phylactery". Scry around playgrounds.

The trouble is, I'm not sure how many of those a Warlock is capable of. They can't really teleport, for instance, and no Nystul's Magic Aura or Shrink Item shenanigans either.

And by the time I craft the goodies to let me do that, they might already have my soul box bagged and tagged. Though I actually think that might be a decent hook.

[RelentlessImp]

Actually, now that you mention it... it just says I need to be an evil outsider, rather than a fiend. So an Evil Neraphim Warlock could work.

*checks Planar Handbook*

Neraphim do die of old age, so my concept could still work. They live quite a long time though, so the pressure wouldn't be as high.

There's also Aasimar, Tieflings, Bauriars, etc., if you don't mind a little LA. The first two I know have an upper limit on their ages similar to humans.

[Optimystik]

Unfortunately, I mind LA very much, as +4 (from the lich) is the most I can go without sacrificing Dark Invocations, and I'm trying to keep this pre-epic if possible.

Lesser Tiefling could work well with the concept, but the Cha penalty makes me leery.

Anyhow, question answered - Magical Training is definitely what I was looking for. Thanks again everyone

[Boci]

The trouble is, I'm not sure how many of those a Warlock is capable of. They can't really teleport, for instance, and no Nystul's Magic Aura or Shrink Item shenanigans either.

And by the time I craft the goodies to let me do that, they might already have my soul box bagged and tagged. Though I actually think that might be a decent hook.

UMD should help to a certain degree, especially if its a one off purchase.

[J.Gellert]

Question. If you are an outsider to begin with, do you still have to bargain with another outsider to get Warlock powers? Can't you get them from unlocking your own potential or something?

Also, don't Pit Fiends have things to do, armies to command, demons to kill, people to torture, instead of being bounty hunters? That's what Hell Hounds are for, and you can take'em! (No... wait... that's Supernatural...)

[Optimystik]

Question. If you are an outsider to begin with, do you still have to bargain with another outsider to get Warlock powers? Can't you get them from unlocking your own potential or something?

Indeed, fluff is mutable - I see no reason why my Neraph couldn't have just discoverd Warlock-ery on his own, or why the fiends in question didn't contract with a distant ancestor.

I was just trying to build an interesting hook into my backstory.

Also, don't Pit Fiends have things to do, armies to command, demons to kill, people to torture, instead of being bounty hunters? That's what Hell Hounds are for, and you can take'em! (No... wait... that's Supernatural...)

Well, if I myself am CR 20, chances are they aren't going to pull punches. Though the build is really done at CR 16. (level 12 for Imbue Item and +4 from lichdom.) So maybe I wouldn't attract that kind of attention then, if indeed I go the "I owe a debt to fiends" route.

[Person_Man]

Note that being undead isn't all it's cracked up to be. You get a boatload of immunities, but you lose your Con score (and thus tend to have piss poor hit points) and become vulnerable to a host of anti-undead spells and effects.

Also, have you looked at Binder (Tome of Magic)? I bring it up because the Binder has similar fluff and crunch (but better - Binder is to Warlock as Swordsage is to Monk) and can specifically grant you "all day" Lich and/or and/or caster abilities, without the need for templates.

[Optimystik]

Note that being undead isn't all it's cracked up to be. You get a boatload of immunities, but you lose your Con score (and thus tend to have piss poor hit points) and become vulnerable to a host of anti-undead spells and effects.

The drawbacks are indeed present, but the immunities and phylactery make up for them in my opinion.

Also, have you looked at Binder (Tome of Magic)? I bring it up because the Binder has similar fluff and crunch (but better - Binder is to Warlock as Swordsage is to Monk) and can specifically grant you "all day" Lich and/or and/or caster abilities, without the need for templates.

Binders don't really have the kind of oomph in terms of crafting that I wanted. A crafting Binder has to get someone else to actually provide the spells, but a crafting Warlock does not; a Binder also can't take 10 on UMD checks under duress for combat use.

Also, I don't think the Swordsage to Monk comparison is really fair here - Tier 4 to 3 isn't as big a jump as 5 to 3, and Warlocks do have their niche.

[Person_Man]

Binders don't really have the kind of oomph in terms of crafting that I wanted. A crafting Binder has to get someone else to actually provide the spells, but a crafting Warlock does not; a Binder also can't take 10 on UMD checks under duress for combat use.

Bind Astaroth and Karsus, and you can craft pretty much any item in the game. And you only have to bind them on days you are going to craft, so you're not "wasting" class abilities or feats on item creation.

Karsus also grants the ability to use magic items as a Wizard of your Binder level, +2 the the DCs of all magic items you use (and several vestiges have debuff effects) which means that offensive magic items are actually useful.

Alternatively or in addition you could bind Balam, who grants you a reroll on anything once every five round, which makes a failed check highly unlikely. Or you could take the Arcane Schooling feat - you’re treated as having one level of one arcane class of your choice for the purpose of activating spell trigger items (Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 33)

Or you could multi-class as a Binder 1/Whatever 4/Anima Mage X, which is one of the better Thuerge classes in the game.

I would also add that by mid levels a Cha based class that invests in UMD and/or any Skill or attribute boosting items can hit the fixed DC 20 check needed to activate any wand 100% of the time.

Also, I don't think the Swordsage to Monk comparison is really fair here - Tier 4 to 3 isn't as big a jump as 5 to 3, and Warlocks do have their niche.

Fair enough. But consider that a Binder can do everything the Warlock can do (Diplomancy, UMD abuse, Save or Lose spam) but with a higher chance of success. All of his abilities are Supernatural, and not Spell-like. The Binder can change his abilities every morning (and even in the middle of the day, if you invest in a feat and a magic item), unlike the Warlock who is basically stuck in whatever niche he builds himself into. The Binder also has access to a variety of defenses that the Warlock lacks, such as Mind Blank. And the Binder has access to infinite Summon from Zceryll and Desharis, which has all sorts of applications.

Which is not to say that a properly build Hellfire Glaivelock is bad. It's just that the Binder has similar fluff, niche, and abilities, but is better at all of them.

[Optimystik]

Bind Astaroth and Karsus, and you can craft pretty much any item in the game. And you only have to bind them on days you are going to craft, so you're not "wasting" class abilities or feats on item creation.

I'm aware of the Astaroth + Karsus combo. What you're forgetting is that neither of them actually give you the spells you need to craft items. Binders have to hire the local wizard's guild, church or druid circle - thus, a craft-focused Binder would have to rely on outside sources. Certainly this is doable, but it doesn't fit my concept at all.

Warlock gets around this via Imbue Item, which explicitly lets them fake spellcasting for crafting. They are self-sufficient.

I have nothing against Binders - they are one of my favorite classes, in fact. They just don't fit this particular concept very well. They are the quintessential "Jack of all trades... master of none."

[The Shadowmind]

For the Binder to craft alone, he would need a one level dip in artificer to get the spells.
I like like the craftalock though. Don't forget the something codex in the Expedition to Castle Raveloft(?), to get least invocations for 20,000gp each.

[Boci]

For the Binder to craft alone, he would need a one level dip in artificer to get the spells.

But artificers do not get spells. Did I miss something about their crafting ability?