planner binding not as easy as you think?

[awa]

Now my though on planner binding in a vacuum it can break the world instantly the first wizard who gets goes through the infinite combo power up but my though is, logical if these smarter then human creatures know about these potential exploits shouldn't wouldn't they put protections in place for them selves.

Now in my mind efreet are obvious, your lawful evil right and live in a community (city of brass) so you get some of your buddies and make a mutual protection pact some one wants you to be their slave forever or make a magical clone of your self you say no (insane circumstance bonuses) and when they try and torture you into doing it your buddies go grab one of their slaves and start forcing him (becuase they need someone else to make the wish) to wish for bad things to happen to you and genies live a long time odds are one of them is much more powerful then you if you spend to much effort pissing off efreet by repeatedly trying to get free wishes he might get angry at you for harassing his subjects.

I suppose in the grand scheme of things this doesn't mean any thing just the tippy verse kind of bugs me pepole keep saying its the logical outcome of any dnd world but in my mind the logical world has no wizards of high enough level to pull (and get away with that kind of thing) becuase some ancient immortal planner creature swats them like a fly BEFORE they get that strong.

[Prodan]

Now in my mind efreet are obvious, your lawful evil right and live in a community (city of brass) so you get some of your buddies and make a mutual protection pact some one wants you to be their slave forever or make a magical clone of your self you say no (insane circumstance bonuses) and when they try and torture you into doing it your buddies go grab one of their slaves and start forcing him (becuase they need someone else to make the wish) to wish for bad things to happen to you and genies live a long time odds are one of them is much more powerful then you if you spend to much effort pissing off efreet by repeatedly trying to get free wishes he might get angry at you for harassing his subjects.

1. Infinity is a large number.
2. Even wish has limits on what it can do reliably. Inflicting massive suffering across plains... does any spell do that? I guess a souped up bestow curse, but that does allow for a save.

[Starbuck_II]

Now my though on planner binding in a vacuum it can break the world instantly the first wizard who gets goes through the infinite combo power up, but my thought is: logical if these smarter then human creatures know about these potential exploits shouldn't wouldn't they put protections in place for them selves.

Now in my mind efreet are obvious, your lawful evil right and live in a community (city of brass).
So you get some of your buddies to make a mutual protection pact. When someone wants you to be their slave forever (or make a magical clone of yourself) you say no (insane circumstance bonuses). And when they try and torture you into doing it, your buddies go grab one of their slaves and start forcing him (becuase they need someone else to make the wish) to wish for bad things to happen to you.

Fixed some spell and grammar errors that made paragraph almost unreadable.

Now, how does your buddy know someone is torturing/enslaving you.
Second, how can he wish bad for you if he doesn't know who you are (a continuation of first problem).
You might have realized none of them have scry as a power.

Third, Only non-efreeti can make wishes. So if he attempts make his slave hurt you, he becomes a slave himself to his slave.

Now genies live a long time odds are one of them is much more powerful then you.

Untrue, Efreeti have LA so they are growing in power slower than a PC.

[Lycanthromancer]

Efreet may be more intelligent than a commoner, but they're not smarter than a wizard. Wizards are amongst the most intelligent beings in the multiverse after mid-levels (above even gods), and have capabilities that make all but the stupidest and most overconfident creatures shudder in fear.

Circumstance bonus of +6 or not, there's no way that an intelligent (ie, any) wizard could possibly lose in a test of wills with an efreeti, since he will have prepared for actually having one.

Also, if offering a deal in the efreeti's favor doesn't work (grant 2 wishes for me in good faith and I'll make the last one on your behalf), then dominate the hell out of it using all the save-or-screw and save-and-still-screw at your disposal, buff yourself with whatever you feel is enough everything you can think of, then keep it as your pet forever.

Anyone with a reasonable Wisdom and a super-high Intelligence that makes it to those levels is going to be wary enough to take as many precautions as they can, stacking the deck so far in their favor that losing is literally not an option.

[Tyrandar]

A guide to planner binding

Couldn't help myself.

[Jack_Simth]

1. Infinity is a large number.
2. Even wish has limits on what it can do reliably. Inflicting massive suffering across plains... does any spell do that? I guess a souped up bestow curse, but that does allow for a save.

It doesn't have to do it reliably if it can be spammed... and one of the safe clauses of Wish is "Transport Travelers", which doesn't actually specify they have to be anywhere near the person the Wish is about. So yes, while it permits both Save (if you're unwilling ... oh yes, and it specifies "an unwilling subject" - there's a pesky clause about unconscious characters, and you have to sleep sometime) and SR (which most PC's don't have). How would you like to, say, wake up in an Antimagic cell, when you're hit by a reach weapon performing a CdG on your sleeping self?

Fixed some spell and grammar errors that made paragraph almost unreadable.

Now, how does your buddy know someone is torturing/enslaving you.

This is actually a relatively simple matter: Scheduled check-ins.

Second, how can he wish bad for you if he doesn't know who you are (a continuation of first problem).

The Transport Travelers clause of Wish doesn't specify you have to actually know the person, although you do need some way of identifying him. "Anyone who has used one of the following 27 effects on so-and-so" is technically in the safe list.

You might have realized none of them have scry as a power.

Immaterial - see above.

Third, Only non-efreeti can make wishes. So if he attempts make his slave hurt you, he becomes a slave himself to his slave.

Doesn't matter. See, your standard Efreeti has a +17 Intimidate modifier, which makes a target "Friendly" - and they share a plane with Fire Memphits, who are *really* easy for an Efreeti to Intimidate (Fire Memphits, being small, give the Large Efreeti a +8 bonus on the Intimidate check... so it's an opposed roll of +25 (Efreeti) vs. about a +3 or +6 on the part of the Fire Memphit - I'm not totally clear on the exact mechanics). So you've got a "Friendly" puppet casting Wishes for you. No real chance of slavery there, ESPECIALLY when it's known that this is happening as a repercussion against slavery. He can even pay the memphit - "One wish for a golden statue for yourself, the other two as I dictate...."

Oh yes, and nothing in the spell-like description of the 1/day 3 wishes specifies that the Efreeti *must* grant a given Wish.

Untrue, Efreeti have LA so they are growing in power slower than a PC.

Doesn't matter. See, the Efreeti have already been around a very, very long time. They may grow in power more slowly, but they start higher up.

Oh yes, and the description of Efreeti specifies that they have a racial hatred of servitude... and they're LAWFUL evil, so setting up this kind of thing is quite in line with the stock description.

Efreet may be more intelligent than a commoner, but they're not smarter than a wizard. Wizards are amongst the most intelligent beings in the multiverse after mid-levels (above even gods), and have capabilities that make all but the stupidest and most overconfident creatures shudder in fear.

Circumstance bonus of +6 or not, there's no way that an intelligent (ie, any) wizard could possibly lose in a test of wills with an efreeti, since he will have prepared for actually having one.

Also, if offering a deal in the efreeti's favor doesn't work (grant 2 wishes for me in good faith and I'll make the last one on your behalf), then dominate the hell out of it using all the save-or-screw and save-and-still-screw at your disposal, buff yourself with whatever you feel is enough everything you can think of, then keep it as your pet forever.

Anyone with a reasonable Wisdom and a super-high Intelligence that makes it to those levels is going to be wary enough to take as many precautions as they can, stacking the deck so far in their favor that losing is literally not an option.

You have a problem: a Wish to move you cares not about what plane you're on, and whether or not you're Mind Blanked (it's not gathering information about you, it's just arbitrarily moving you). And the one you're dealing with isn't necessarily the one that will take revenge.

[The Glyphstone]

A guide to planner binding

Couldn't help myself.

That was mean. I still laughed.

[Prodan]

So yes, while it permits both Save (if you're unwilling ... oh yes, and it specifies "an unwilling subject" - there's a pesky clause about unconscious characters, and you have to sleep sometime)

No I do not.

[Jack_Simth]

No I do not.

Okay. Then you have to roll a series of 1's on your will saves eventually.

[Prodan]

Okay. Then you have to roll a series of 1's on your will saves eventually.

Alternatively, Dimension Lock myself and send a sending telling them to suck it.

[Oslecamo]

Anyone with a reasonable Wisdom and a super-high Intelligence that makes it to those levels is going to be wary enough to take as many precautions as they can, stacking the deck so far in their favor that losing is literally not an option.

Muhahaha I've got over 9000 buffs and spells ready! How can you refuse my will puny efreeti?

I've already granted my wishes this morning.

...Crap...

Hey, wizard, you wasting more time with that? We got a BBEG to stop and stuff in case you've forgoten!

[Jack_Simth]

Alternatively, Dimension Lock myself and send a sending telling them to suck it.

You may want to re-read the transport traveler's clause on wish. It includes that nifty phrase "regardless of local conditions", and even if that doesn't matter, you've got a problem: You can never planar travel again.

Muhahaha I've got over 9000 buffs and spells ready! How can you refuse my will puny efreeti?

I've already granted my wishes this morning.

...Crap...

Hey, wizard, you wasting more time with that? We got a BBEG to stop and stuff in case you've forgoten!

If *that* was the only problem, the solution is simple: Kill Efreeti, take sample, make Simulacrum at convenient time, have the critter that is explicitly under your absolute control grant you the wishes another day.

[Prodan]

You may want to re-read the transport traveler's clause on wish.

"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions."

The "local conditions" clause refers to placing people, not snatching them away.

Bazinga.

[Jack_Simth]

You may want to re-read the transport traveler's clause on wish. I severely doubt that magical effects are "local conditions".

In what sense is a spell with a radius of 20 feet not a local condition?

You may want to re-read the transport traveler's clause on wish.

"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions."

The "local conditions" clause refers to placing people, not snatching them away.

Bazinga.

My you do a lot of editing. Okay. So the Efreeti snatches away some overly-high CR critter and plops that right on top of you.

Oh yes, and the Efreeti are handled by the DM, who is also the judge of such things as "effects more powerful than these". And in character, it's the Efreeti's granting the Wish, who may then get to decide what form the twisting takes. And, given that they have three Wishes as a daily effect, they probably have a *lot* of experience with Wish wording.

[Prodan]

"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions."

The "local conditions" clause refers to placing people, not snatching them away.

Bazinga.

Also, the wizard is only prevented from planar travel ever again if the enemy is continually Wishing at him for eternity. You will, of course, say that is incredibly likely. I would like to preemptively disagree.

[olentu]

Muhahaha I've got over 9000 buffs and spells ready! How can you refuse my will puny efreeti?

I've already granted my wishes this morning.

...Crap...

Hey, wizard, you wasting more time with that? We got a BBEG to stop and stuff in case you've forgoten!

Why not just go off and fight the BBEG for a while and get those wishes on the next day.

[The Glyphstone]

"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions."

The "local conditions" clause refers to placing people, not snatching them away.

Bazinga.

I don't see any commas there. Without sentence structuring, "regardless of local conditions' can apply to the origin point or destination, or both, even though it's at the end of the sentence. English is weird like that, so your 'bazinga' is a dud here.

[Prodan]

I don't see any commas there. Without sentence structuring, "regardless of local conditions' can apply to the origin point or destination, or both, even though it's at the end of the sentence. English is weird like that, so your 'bazinga' is a dud here.

I believe my interpretation is valid for purely selfish and egotistical reasons.

[Lycanthromancer]

Muhahaha I've got over 9000 buffs and spells ready! How can you refuse my will puny efreeti?

I've already granted my wishes this morning.

"Fine. I'll spend the rest of today torturing you, wait until tomorrow, and rebuff. Enjoy the longest 24 hours of your existence, fool."

Fixed that for you.

[Prodan]

Incidentally, Jack Smith, I appreciate the fact that you offer actual arguments.

[Jack_Simth]

Also, the wizard is only prevented from planar travel ever again if the enemy is continually Wishing at him for eternity. You will, of course, say that is incredibly likely. I would like to preemptively disagree.

It doesn't need to be eternal. Just a random schedule for a very long duration. See, with the description, it's in the efreeti's best interests to keep this kind of thing from happening to Efreeti. One of the simplest ways to do that is to make certain that those who try it get shafted. There's actually very good reason for the Efreeti to keep at it for a very long time.

Additionally, even if you're personally immune, you still have a problem: The Efreeti simply needs to locate a suitable opponent, and hire him, paying in Wishes.

Oh yes, and what The_Glyphstone said.

Incidentally, Jack Smith, I appreciate the fact that you offer actual arguments.

Eh, it's no fun (for me) to just rant at people.

[Koury]

It doesn't need to be eternal. Just a random schedule for a very long duration. See, with the description, it's in the efreeti's best interests to keep this kind of thing from happening to Efreeti. One of the simplest ways to do that is to make certain that those who try it get shafted. There's actually very good reason for the Efreeti to keep at it for a very long time.

Additionally, even if you're personally immune, you still have a problem: The Efreeti simply needs to locate a suitable opponent, and hire him, paying in Wishes.

Oh yes, and what The_Glyphstone said.

Yes, all that.

Or, and this is what I'd prefer, the DM just says "No, let's keep that level of stuff out of this game." If you don't like it, say so and we move on.

[Prodan]

It doesn't need to be eternal. Just a random schedule for a very long duration.

I concede the point, since there is absolutely no way for the wizard to find out when future events will occur and plan for them in advance.

Additionally, even if you're personally immune, you still have a problem: The Efreeti simply needs to locate a suitable opponent, and hire him, paying in Wishes.

Unfortunately, the opponent will be CR appropriate and stand a good chance of providing XP and loot for the wizard.

Oh yes, and what The_Glyphstone said.

The clause could apply to either part of that sentence, you say? Then it's not really a clear cut victory for your interpretation.

Me? I believe it makes more sense as putting the target down at a location regardless of local conditions that would otherwise prevent it.

[The Glyphstone]

SPOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!

This was funnier.

[awa]

a basic one has an int of 12 nothings stopping them from having class levels or above average int. Keep in mind by intimidating a commoner into granting them wishes they can have a massive number of self buffs and magic items. Any abuse a wizard could come up with the genie can as well your average genie commoner might not be as smart as the wizards but hes alot older and can copy the genie wizard who's rolled a natural 18 int wished for magic items with free wish's and gave himself inherent bonuses can the wizard math that?

All this of course goes back to my core premise that any thing the wizard thinks up the genies have already thought up and planed a counter for.

with wish abuse they have a huge spell lists and magic item selection. A magic item or spell that alerts you that someone has grabbed one of your buddies shouldn't be tough. with centuries of accumulating three magic items a day the genie they likely have quite a stash.

[Prodan]

can the wizard math that?

Wizards are probably better at mathematics, yes.

[AstralFire]

I'm still snickering at planner binding. >_>

[olentu]

a basic one has an int of 12 nothings stopping them from having class levels or above average int. Keep in mind by intimidating a commoner into granting them wishes they can have a massive number of self buffs and magic items. Any abuse a wizard could come up with the genie can as well your average genie commoner might not be as smart as the wizards but hes alot older and can copy the genie wizard who's rolled a natural 18 int wished for magic items with free wish's and gave himself inherent bonuses can the wizard math that?

All this of course goes back to my core premise that any thing the wizard thinks up the genies have already thought up and planed a counter for.

with wish abuse they have a huge spell lists and magic item selection. A magic item or spell that alerts you that someone has grabbed one of your buddies shouldn't be tough. with centuries of accumulating three magic items a day the genie they likely have quite a stash.

Would this not bring up the problem of why a cabal of effreti wizards are not running everything.

[Jack_Simth]

Oh, if only there was a way to determine when it would happen. Some sort of spell that could auger or divine the future, for instance. Pity the wizard has no such tricks. I concede the point.

Hmm? Oh, if fortune-telling becomes a problem, the Efreeti simply need to arrange for Mind Blanks (duplicated by Wishes) to be part of the procedure. They block Divinations.

Unfortunately, the opponent will be CR appropriate and stand a good chance of providing XP and loot for the wizard.

Potentially. But then, you've got a hidden problem with trusting to that:
The DM metagames by definition, and one of his responsibilities is to make certain that something close to game balance is maintained. And it's the DM that selects the opponent. It is in his interests to prevent Wish abuse, and one of the simpler means to handle it (in-game methods, if you're insisting he isn't simply arranging for a gentleman's agreement to not abuse such things) is to hit you with something that will severely neuter your character to bring you back in-line. Which, you know, generally means an over-powered opponent with a highly specific target, who's goal isn't so much "destroy him" as it is "Make him suffer".

The clause could apply to either part of that sentence, you say? Then it's not a clear cut case, is it?

Lucky for me, it's the DM who gets to interpret the rules where there's ambiguity, and part of the DM's job is maintaining relative game balance. If you're using Efreeti-abuse to break the game, he's totally justified in letting the Efreeti snatch you up this way out of a Cheater of Mystria's Dimensional Locked Antimagic Field under that slightly-ambiguous clause.

Would this not bring up the problem of why a cabal of effreti wizards are not running everything.

"Who says they aren't" makes for a great plot-hook, doesn't it?

[Prodan]

Hmm? Oh, if fortune-telling becomes a problem, the Efreeti simply need to arrange for Mind Blanks (duplicated by Wishes) to be part of the procedure. They block Divinations.

"Outer Planes Deity, when am I going to be the victim of another attack?"

Potentially. But then, you've got a hidden problem with trusting to that:
The DM metagames by definition, and one of his responsibilities is to make certain that something close to game balance is maintained. And it's the DM that selects the opponent. It is in his interests to prevent Wish abuse, and one of the simpler means to handle it (in-game methods, if you're insisting he isn't simply arranging for a gentleman's agreement to not abuse such things) is to hit you with something that will severely neuter your character to bring you back in-line. Which, you know, generally means an over-powered opponent with a highly specific target, who's goal isn't so much "destroy him" as it is "Make him suffer". Lucky for me, it's the DM who gets to interpret the rules where there's ambiguity, and part of the DM's job is maintaining relative game balance. If you're using Efreeti-abuse to break the game, he's totally justified in letting the Efreeti snatch you up this way out of a Cheater of Mystria's Dimensional Locked Antimagic Field under that slightly-ambiguous clause.

Two wrongs do not equal a right. Or a chicken, for that matter.