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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default [3.5] Help me with my Necromancy, dawgs.

    Howdy. I figure this would be the best place to put this.

    I am currently playing The Shackled City adventure path, playing as a Necromancer. My party members are a Lawful Good Cleric of Moradim, a Paladin Kensai and a Fighter who... well... sells poles. He uses a bow. And he sells poles. Don't ask. His character is an odd one.

    But I am playing a Necromancer. My class build is currently:

    Human Paragon (Spellcaster) 3, Wizard 2 (Necromancy Specialist. Barred Schools: Enchantment and Illusion), Sorcerer 1
    http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Human_P...Paragon_Class)

    I am playing with the Metamagic Specialist from PHB II and the Battle Sorcerer Variant from Complete Mage for my Sorcerer levels. I am using the Skeletal Minion, Undead Apotheosis and Enhanced Undead variants from Unearthed Arcana.

    My Feats are:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Spell Focus (Necromancy) [Given for Free] {Player's Handbook}
    Fel Animate [1st Level] {Libris Mortis}
    Fearsome Necromancy [Bonus Human Feat] {Complete Mage}
    Energy Substitution: Cold [Bonus Feat from Paragon Class] {Complete Arcane}
    Scribe Scroll [Bonus Wizard Feat] {Player's Handbook}
    Undead Legion [Acquired at 3rd Level] {Dragon Magazine #298, Shades of Death}
    Craft Wondrous Item [Flaw, at 4th Level] {Player's Handbook}
    Craft Magical Arms + Armor [Flaw, at 5th Level] {Player's Handbook}


    Now, some of you will note that Fel Animate increases the level of a spell by 3. The DM is allowing me to bypass this, because I am a heavy Necromancer, with one requirement: The Undead raised using this method have a high chance of either being crippled (Lowered Strength, no Damage Reduction, Self-Damaging), or fall apart completely after an unknown amount of time (He rolls percentile on this). It has a chance to come forth as a normal Undead, as per Animate Undead, but the chance is small.

    I plan on going into Ultimate Magus, but I'm wondering what I should do with my feats. The Paladin, Cleric and Fighter will be on the same power level as me, so there is no worry of me overwhelming the group balance.

    My questions are:
    People who have played Ultimate Magus, how did you make yourself Supremely Awesome?
    People who have played Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good Necromancers, how have you played your character?
    People who are good with Necromancy, what are some tips?
    And finally, what are some good, in your opinion, attack spells?
    Last edited by Cardea; 2010-06-08 at 06:04 PM.
    I currently do not check the playground forums. If you would like to reach me, you can find me on twitter as HTTPaladin.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Keld Denar's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Cardea] Help me with my Necromancy, dawgs.

    If you want to do the UM thing, do this:

    Take 1 level of Beguiler. Now take 4 levels of Wizard. At level 3, take Practiced Spellcaster for your Beguiler side. You now have a Beguiler CL of 5, and a Wizard CL of 4. When you take your 1st level of UM, Wizard will have the lower CL, even though you have more levels of it. Thus, the level up will go to Wizard. The next couple levels add to both, then you end up with them being even, and you can opt to put the extra spellcaster level to wizard again. Unfortunately, this is where things get sticky. If you are Illumian and have the Krau (int) sigil, the boost to CL follows you the rest of the way home. If you aren't, you run into a bit of trouble and are forced to put a couple extra levels in Beguiler.

    What you get, however, is a character that is a nearly fully leveled Wizard. That gives you the MOST high level necromancy you can bring to the table. You are primarily going to be using your Beguiler magic to power metamagic on your Wizard side for things like Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, or Split Ray of Exhaustion, or Fell Draining Chill Touch, etc. You can also use your Beguiler slots for digusing your undead friends from the evil cleric and paladin. They won't understand the depth of your soul anyway.

    Low level necromancy is pretty awesome for debuffing. You'll specialize in spells that will reduce your foes to wimpering, cowering messes of goo for your party members to splatter all over the dungeon. Ray of Enfeeblement is INSANELY good, especially when you Empower it. It also works against undead, plants, and things normally immune to ability damage because its NOT ability damage, its just a penalty. Still doesn't work on constructs due to SR though. Kelgore's Grave Mist is a duel school Necro/Conjouration in the PHBII that is a pretty solid level 2, and putting a Fell Draining on that can be an auto-game winner against some foes. Level 3 has the awesome amazing Vampyric Touch and Ray of Exhaustion, and the blasphemous Shivering Touch. Check with your DM before you swing Shivering Touch around too much, its pretty broken. Theo theres are great. A trick is to use Split Ray on Ray of Exhaustion and hit one target with both rays. That way, EVEN IF they make both saves, they are still exhausted because fatigue effects stack.

    You probably also want to nab the feat Fearsome Necromancy from Complete Mage. It gives you a mini-Fear effect when you use necromancy. Shaken gives a -2 to just about everything. If you make a shakened creature shakened, it becomes paniced, and then the real fun starts. Another -2 to everything (-4 total!) and they are forced to run away. If you shaken a paniced creature, it cowering time, and yup, another -2 to everything (net total, -6!) and the foe can only curl up in a little ball and shake. Its pretty awesome. Other things that impose fear are Dreadful Wrath (Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) and Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark). That last one is a doosie, especially when combined with the 4th level necro spell Fear. Basically makes "save vs lose" into "no save, just lose".

    So yea. Lots of stuff there. Any questions?

    EDIT:
    You might want to change the [Cardea] tag to [3.5] so people don't get confused...
    Last edited by Keld Denar; 2010-06-08 at 05:41 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help me with my Necromancy, dawgs.

    Practiced Spellcaster is from Complete Divine, correct?
    And if you look at my original post, I already have class levels set up before I go into UM.

    However, the Beguiler/Wizard combo is... wow. I would have not have thought of that, to be honest. Now, if my thinking is correct, Beguiler is mostly based in Enchantment and Illusion? What if someone were to be playing a Wizard, and doing what I did where I barred Enchantment and Illusion? Wouldn't the Beguiler be reluctant to make such a choice, or a Wizard reluctant to train as a Beguiler?

    Do you know of any spells that help with disabling an opponent? Much like Ghoul Glyph?

    Now, one of the big things that's nice about UM is the Augmented Casting feature. The Sorcerer Variant 'Metamagic Specialist' achieves the same effect, but without sacrificing a spell to do so. Can you think of any other really good, though not so obvious, Metamagic Feats that a Necromancer would use?

    Oh, and why the change in tag?
    Last edited by Cardea; 2010-06-08 at 06:23 PM.
    I currently do not check the playground forums. If you would like to reach me, you can find me on twitter as HTTPaladin.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help me with my Necromancy, dawgs.

    Chain Spell
    Extend Spell

    are the key Undead Army metamagic feats.

    use them to augment the Command Undead Spell


    on the Beguiler/Wizard question:

    on one hand
    Why would a beguiler waste time studying enchantment and illusion when it can create such effects naturally? I would expect most Beguiler/Wizards to ban Enchantment and Illusion on the Wizard side.

    on the other hand
    What wizard wouldn't regret banning enchantment and illusion and seek another way of casting such spells? I would expect some Wizards the banned Enchantment and Illusion to attempt to learn how to cast like a beguiler.


    Also why are you taking the Undead Legion feat? The Undead Legion feat gives a flat +4HD bonus to Animate Dead.

    Two useful sources regarding necromancy.
    K's Revised Necromancer Handbook

    Small Guide to Finite Undead Armies
    Last edited by OldTrees; 2010-06-08 at 07:26 PM.
    "The fool is marked by ignoring the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their eagerness to heed the wisdom of the fool."

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help me with my Necromancy, dawgs.

    To expound on that:

    Chained command undead is great. It doesn't do damage, so Chain Spell doesn't allow for a Reflex save but reduces the secondary DC by 4. Yet command undead has no save for unintelligent undead (IIRC) so you snag 1 + CL undead in a single casting.

    Toss in Residual Magic (Complete Mage) and you can reuse that metamagic on the next round for free!
    Last edited by Maerok; 2010-06-08 at 08:09 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help me with my Necromancy, dawgs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardea View Post
    Practiced Spellcaster is from Complete Divine, correct?
    And if you look at my original post, I already have class levels set up before I go into UM.
    No no, I read it. I was just suggesting a more efficient route. You are free to use your build or mine. I was just making you aware of the possibility of a better entry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardea View Post
    However, the Beguiler/Wizard combo is... wow. I would have not have thought of that, to be honest. Now, if my thinking is correct, Beguiler is mostly based in Enchantment and Illusion? What if someone were to be playing a Wizard, and doing what I did where I barred Enchantment and Illusion? Wouldn't the Beguiler be reluctant to make such a choice, or a Wizard reluctant to train as a Beguiler?
    Optimizationwise, Beguiler is the superior option. Its Int based meaning you'll get more bonus spells. Also, dumping Enchantment and possibly Illusion (there is still a TON of higher level illusions you'd miss since your Beguiler levels will cap out at 4th level spells) makes plenty of sense, although I'd still dump Evocation and Enchantment. You can get what little blasting you need from Conjouration, and most of your debuffs and kill spells will be Necromancy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardea View Post
    Do you know of any spells that help with disabling an opponent? Much like Ghoul Glyph?
    Um, the only other low level disable I can think of is Ghoul Touch, which is a touch spell, and therefore hazardous to your own health. Most Necro debuffs aren't outright disables. Take Ray of Enfeeblement. If you can drop a foes Str down low enough, he can't hit you. If you drop it to 12 or less, he also can't use Power Attack, or any feats derived from PA (like Shocktrooper, Knockback, Cleave, etc). It doesn't completely disable the foe, but it does make them VERY weak. Another is Fear. Again, it doesn't completely disable the foe, but while they are running like a scared little girl, you can fling spells and arrows at them, or just wait till they come back after you've killed all their friends. Very powerful for divide and conquer, especially if you can stack other fear effects on it (like Frightening Necromancy).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardea View Post
    Now, one of the big things that's nice about UM is the Augmented Casting feature. The Sorcerer Variant 'Metamagic Specialist' achieves the same effect, but without sacrificing a spell to do so. Can you think of any other really good, though not so obvious, Metamagic Feats that a Necromancer would use?
    I think you've read the Sorcerer varient wrong. It doesn't reduce the level adjustment of the metamagic, just the casting time. Normally, a Sorcerer applying metamagic to a spell requires a full round action. Metamagic Specialist reduces that back down to a standard action. It still takes a higher level spell slot though, Ray of Enfeeblement is a 1st level spell apply +2 in the case of Empower, and it takes a 3rd level slot, for example. UM's Augmented Casting, on the other hand, allows you to sacrifice spell slots from one side to attach metamagic to the other for NO increase. If you cast a Ray of Enfeeblement on your Wizard side and sacrificed a 2nd level spell slot on your Beguiler side, the result would be an Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, except it only took a 1st level Wizard slot to cast it.

    Where this is good is that you can cast spells of a level that you normally wouldn't be able to. Split Ray is a +2 Metamagic. If the highest level spells you could cast on your Wizard side were 4th level spells, you couldn't normally cast a Split Ray Ray of Exhaustion (RoE is a 3rd level, +2 for Split Ray is a 5th level spell). But with UM, you could prep a Ray of Exhaustion in a 3rd level slot, use a 2nd level Beguiler slot to apply Split Ray to it, and cast a Split Ray Ray of Enfeeblement on the fly. The higher the level of Beguiler spells you can cast, the better free MM you can apply, up to 4th level for free Quickens or free Twins.

    As far as metamagic, check my last post. Empower is good for Ray of Enfeeblement and Enervation, while Split Ray is good for Ray of Exhaustion and Enervation. Fell Draining (Libris Mortis) turns every spell into a mini-Enervation, Fell Animating (Libris Mortis) produces free minions, and Fell Frightening is GREAT for stacking on fear effects. Fell Frightening Fear basically has no save, because you are screwed either way. Pick a couple and play around with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardea View Post
    Oh, and why the change in tag?
    Eh, it was just kinda confusing. The tag usually indicates edition or system such as [3.5] [4e] [M&M] [Rifts] etc. Your name is already tagged to the thread as origionator, so all that would do would confuse people into wondering if there is a [Cardea] system. Its mostly semantics, but will probably lure more people into your thread if you tag them correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    AILHAY THULUCAY! AILHAY THULUCAY! AILHAY THULUCAY!
    _________________________________
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