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2010-06-09, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
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[3.5] Why are the Summon Undead spells so bad?
So, Summon Undead. Mainstay of the Dread Necromancer, and at the very least thematically appropriate for a Necromancer Wizard, too. So... why on earth are they so awful?
First, there's the "No undead creature you summon can have more Hit Dice than your caster level +1." Meanwhile, here's a nifty chart:
{table=head]Summon Undead... | Min CL+1 | HD's available | Respective CR's
I | 2 | 1, 2 | 1/3, 1/2
II | 4 | 5, 6 | 2, 2
III | 6 | 1, 6, 8 | 1, 3, 3
IV | 8 | 4, 4, 14 | 3, 3, 4
V | 10 | 8, 3, 4, 4 | 5, 3, 4, 3[/table]
Note how you cannot actually use any of the creatures from the SU2 list when you get it, and one of your choices for SU4 is hilariously unusable until CL 13. Note also that there are a grand total of fourteen monsters on the entire list - coincidentally, do you know how many monsters are on the Summon Monster I list? (hint: it's exactly the same number as the entire Summon Undead line)
Can anyone shed any light on why these spells are so bad? Alternatively, can anyone correct me and show me how they're not so bad?
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2010-06-09, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2004
- Location
- Enterprise, Alabama
- Gender
Re: [3.5] Why are the Summon Undead spells so bad?
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2010-06-09, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
- Gender
Re: [3.5] Why are the Summon Undead spells so bad?
Spell Compendium; sorry, didn't realize they'd changed.
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2010-06-09, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Re: [3.5] Why are the Summon Undead spells so bad?
WOTC, unbalanced...no surprise. If you like them, surely you can tinker with them a bit to produce a version that doesn't suck.
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2010-06-09, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: [3.5] Why are the Summon Undead spells so bad?
So:
1. Remove the annoying HD cap.
2. Make sure each undead has a CR at least equal to the spell level.
3. Add more.
4. Suggestion: make it so igt can be either a conjuration or necromancer spell."It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2010-06-09, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
Re: [3.5] Why are the Summon Undead spells so bad?
Because they want you to rebuke and command not make more silly
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2010-06-09, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- London, England.
Re: [3.5] Why are the Summon Undead spells so bad?
Because even if the numbers are low, you can still summon up incorporeal undead like Shadows and Allips which are pretty much a guaranteed kill against about half the creatures in the Monster Manual.
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2010-06-09, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2009
Re: [3.5] Why are the Summon Undead spells so bad?
Apparently you haven't noticed you can summon allips. Incorporeal, and with a WIS drain touch-attack. A surprising number of things can be trivially killed by them.
The rest really aren't that bad compared to the summon monster line, which tends to produce things of (CR = Spell level -1), give or take a couple depending on whether it has any awesome abilities. A kobold zombie at level 1 has triple health compared to most summons, and DR as well. It might not kill anything, but it can soak a lot of damage compared to a celestial dog, for example. Admittedly, this isn't very useful until duration gets longer than 1 round, but still.
So get rid of the HD cap, which was only there because earlier versions of the spell let you summon huge skeletons with SU III, with no limit on the type.