2 Questions about Wish

[Desril]

Because it has apparently been in so many topics it gets excluded from searches...

1. What is the earliest possible way to get a Wish as a wizard, assuming your GM doesn't hand you one? Lesser Planar Binding?

2. Wish cannot be used to wish for more Wishes, but can you wish for Wish to become a Spell-Like Ability for yourself? If not, what about Limited Wish?

[TripperdeCleric]

I would also wish to know these heh...pretty good thinking.

[sonofzeal]

1) Make a high enough Knowledge check (doable at lvl1), and you can summon Pazuzu for a free wish.

2) Wish for a Candle of Invocation of your alignment. Use the Candle to Gate in three Solars. Tell the Solars to cast Miracle and give you another Candle each. Rinse, repeat.

[PId6]

Wishing for Wish (or anything) as an SLA is beyond the listed powers of Wish unless there's a spell that can do it (of 8th level or lower). You can Wish to mimic Limited Wish, once, but somehow that seems like a bad idea.

Candles of Invocation is the classic way to get more Wishes, but you can always use Wish to mimic Planar Binding, to Wish for a Ring of Three Wishes, to Wish for a Luck Blade with 3 Wishes, to Wish for a Staff of Wish, etc.

[Killer Angel]

OP: Wish, if used for creating magic item, has no limit in the cost of said items: you can wish for anything ('xept minor artifact or similar objects), but you must pay the price with xp.
The dirty RAW trick, is that a creature with a SLA wish, don't pay any cost in xp for wishing, hence the potential loop, gaining infinite free wishes, starting from a candle of invocation.

Don't do it.

[Hendel]

OP: Wish, if used for creating magic item, has no limit in the cost of said items: you can wish for anything ('xept minor artifact or similar objects), but you must pay the price with hp.
The dirty RAW trick, is that a creature with a SLA wish, don't pay any cost in xp for wishing, hence the potential loop, gaining infinite free wishes, starting from a candle of invocation.

Don't do it.

I think you meant to say it costs XP not HP.

I know it is something that you could do with a very liberal reading of the rules and all of the infinite cycles that will give you. However, any DM worth his salt would stomp that out before it began.

I would say that you can buy a scroll of Wish as soon as you could afford it. That might be as early as tenth level or so. There are other outsider options that would give them to you as well.


As far as the making Wish a Spell-Like Ability, there is nothing in the list about this so it falls into the "you may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous." That would fall under your DM's direction, but if I were your DM I would say no. Take it as a spell and you will have it at your disposal all day!

[Killer Angel]

I think you meant to say it costs XP not HP.

True, my first reference was a mistake. Post edited.

I know it is something that you could do with a very liberal reading of the rules and all of the infinite cycles that will give you. However, any DM worth his salt would stomp that out before it began.

To be fair, I've never see a player try to do that trick in a real game. But it's a fun thing to debate on internet and, in theory, is possible by RAW.

As far as the making Wish a Spell-Like Ability, there is nothing in the list about this so it falls into the "you may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous."

This point is unclear, maybe it's my fault in reading. You don't use wish to gain it as a SLA, you gate a creature (Solar, etc.) that has Wish as SLA.

[PId6]

This point is unclear, maybe it's my fault in reading. You don't use wish to gain it as a SLA, you gate a creature (Solar, etc.) that has Wish as SLA.

The OP asked if it's possible to gain Wish as an SLA yourself via Wish. The answer is that it's not a listed use of Wish, and it's very questionable as a "special" use of it.

[Killer Angel]

The OP asked if it's possible to gain Wish as an SLA yourself via Wish. The answer is that it's not a listed use of Wish, and it's very questionable as a "special" use of it.

Ouch, I was stuck in the reasoning on candles and I forgot OP's second point!
Yes, that's TOTALLY outside the limits of a wish.

[Runestar]

I see no harm in letting you expend one use of wish to get another wish...and pay an additional 5000xp in the process...

To me, so long as you enforce the payment of xp for wish (even if it is used as a SLA or SU ability, rules be darned) and stick to the accepted guidelines as listed in the PHB, there is little harm in letting players access it as an ability usable at will. At 5000xp per pop, players will be hard pressed to abuse it in a manner which will break the game.

[gbprime]

In my opinion, a player can use a wish to get a +1 to a stat (max of +5, and I ignore the whole "in rapid succession" line of that, wishes are expensive enough already), a bonus feat, any 8th level spell effect or lower, 25,000 gp worth of stuff (magical or otherwise), or to influence or arrange a future event in some way.

Now that last one follows the same general rule of power as well. Anything that exceeds the value of the guidelines above will have a cost or a twist to it. And anything that is used as an "easy button" or an "I win" button gets a "yes, but..." added to it.

And certainly any group that starts up the "conga line of infinite wishes" is going to have some major foo happen to them as the universe (and the wealth-by-level guidelines) seek to balance the whole thing out.

I did have a player at one point get a Thought Bottle. He thought he could spend the 500 xp to put his XP total into it, cast 3 or 4 wishes, restore his XP, repeat. So it came out to 500 xp per 4 wishes. No problem, you can do that. But now that you've reclaimed the XP that powered the wishes, the wishes aren't permanent. All the stats and feats he gained faded over time.

[PId6]

Now that last one follows the same general rule of power as well. Anything that exceeds the value of the guidelines above will have a cost or a twist to it. And anything that is used as an "easy button" or an "I win" button gets a "yes, but..." added to it.

"Yes, but you didn't wish not to be set on fire."

[Lord Vukodlak]

Cheating with Wish=The universe squashes you.

[Siosilvar]

"Yes, but you didn't wish not to be set on fire."

"Yes, but you didn't wish for the fire not to be on fire."

[For Valor]

You could try w/the Pazuzu (as above), or at level 11 you could pull Planar Binding to summon an Efreet with Magic Circle Against Evil and basically threaten to kill the thing unless it follows your orders. Use 2 wishes to do whatever you want, then use the other to cast Planar Binding in the same Magic Circle Against Evil you already have in place. Then you can dismiss the first Efreet and begin on the second.

Of course, you can get a Candle of Invocation at any given point, but the minimum level you can get wish via class abilities would be 11.

[Jack_Simth]

Of course, you can get a Candle of Invocation at any given point, but the minimum level you can get wish via class abilities would be 11.

Well... there are actually a couple of methods by which to have Full Casting in excess of your hit dice. Just as an example, the Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer-9 with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage casts as a Sorcerer-12... netting 6th level spells, and thus, the possibility of Planar Binding.

[For Valor]

Totally didn't think about that.

Y'know, you could also go for a dimunitive (3rd-party template, -4 LA) Awakened Incarnate (-2 LA) Warforged and get wish at level 5.

But that's a terrible and dastardly move ot make.

[Wolf Warhead]

For Wish exploitation... Wasn't there an Inevitable of Space/Time that hunted down anyone who abused powerful spells like Wish or Miracle?

[Flickerdart]

For Wish exploitation... Wasn't there an Inevitable of Space/Time that hunted down anyone who abused powerful spells like Wish or Miracle?

And do you really think that some mere inevitable could stop someone that was abusing powerful spells like Wish or Miracle?

[Lord Vukodlak]

And do you really think that some mere inevitable could stop someone that was abusing powerful spells like Wish or Miracle?

Looking at their stats they are quite beefy, it take several to pose a threat to a group of adventuring PC's of that level. [CR 17].

One of them could quite easily time stop, teleport to the wizards location,
[an inevitable is obviously informed of the transgressors where about by someone]. Then while time is still stopped move next to the wizard and be ready to cast temporal status the moment the spell ends.

Hell the guys get limited wish as a SLA 1/day.

Tactically I can easily see one of them ambushing a wizard and taking him out.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Actually I think you can get wiah loops earlier, Summon Mirror Mephit, they get Simulacrum As a SLA get a simulacrum of an Efreeti, use to whishes on whatvere you want, wish for another simulacrum of an efreeti rinse and repeat.

Doable IIRC at level 3 (Summon Mirror Mephit is a level 2 spells IIR)

[Lord Vukodlak]

Actually I think you can get wiah loops earlier, Summon Mirror Mephit, they get Simulacrum As a SLA get a simulacrum of an Efreeti, use to whishes on whatvere you want, wish for another simulacrum of an efreeti rinse and repeat.

Doable IIRC at level 3 (Summon Mirror Mephit is a level 2 spells IIR)

A Simulacrum is significantly weaker then the original creature, it doesn't have all the abilities of the duplicated creature. I'd think wish would be the first ability to go. And I'm going to guess the CL of a Mirror Mephit is no where near enough to make an Efreeti.