Is This a Good Prestige Class for a Paladin?

[wayfare]

Hey all.

I was over on the gaming board, and I am trying to help one of my players who is playing a sort of Fencer themed Paladin. Here is the character:

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Human Paladin 5, indentured to Sune

Str: 13
Dex: 18
Con: 15
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 16

Feats: Weapon Focus (Rapier), Dodge, Weapon Finesse

The character uses rapiers and is currently wielding a Keen Rapier. He also carries a sabre to use two handed against larger opponents. He uses light armor, usually a chain shirt.

He's basically trying to play a more effective combat paladin who still fences and uses light armor. So I came up with this:

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The Knight-Champion

Prereqs: Paladin or Fighter 5+
Charisma 16+
Feat: Dodge
Feat: Weapon Focus

Hit Dice: d10
Base Attack Bonus: Good

Fortitude: Average
Reflex: Good
Will: Poor

Level 1
Uncanny Dodge 1

Level 2
Artful Lunge: The champion may move up to half his Movement Rate and still take a full attack action.

Level 3
Bonus Feat

Level 4
Bonus Feat

Level 5
Champions Focus: The Champion may roll his initiative twice each encounter and choose the best result.

Level 6
Uncanny Dodge 2

Level 7
Bonus Feat

Level 8
Bonus Feat

Level 9
Champions Rebuke: Once each round, if an opponent attacks the Knight-Champion and misses, the Knight
Champion may make an attack of opportunity against that foe.

Level 10
Divine Edge: The Champion may automatically confirm any criticals it strikes

Bonus Feat List
Improved Initiative
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization
Mobility
Spring Attack


New Feats (That can be chosen as bonus Feats)

Imbue Weapon
Reqs: Wis: 14, Divine Spellcasting, Base Attack +5
You channel divine power into your weapon, striking with the fury of your chosen divinity. You can choose to lose any memorized spell to grant your weapon +1 enhancement bonus and +1d6 damage of a type chosen by your DM. These effects stack with any enhancements to your weapon lasting a number of rounds equal to (Wisdom Modifier + Spell level).
The type of damage bonus granted by this power should be determined beforehand by the DM and player, and should be emblematic of the god the paladin serves. Sune might inflict bonus fire damage while Lloth might inflict acid damage and Illmater inflicts additional piercing damage. Once chosen, the damage bonus is static.

Pierce Ward
Reqs: Cha 16, Divine Spellcasting 3+, Base Attack +8
The touch of your weapon releases a brief burst of divine power, cutting through a spell casters defenses. On a successful melee attack, you may choose to lose any memorized spell. On a success you manifest the effect of Dispel Magic upon your opponent (and only your opponent)

Shatter Ward
Reqs: Wis: 16, Cha 18, Divine Spellcasting 4+, Base attack 10+
As Pierce Ward, save that you must lose a spell of 3rd or 4th level and gain the benefit of Greater Dispel Magic.

So yeah, any thoughts? I could use some help making this work.

[Jallorn]

Prereqs: Paladin or Fighter 5+

Always a bad idea to require specific levels in a class.

[BladeofOblivion]

It's certainly better than a straight paladin.

Alternately, see if your DM will allow this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160730

[Temotei]

Prestige classes shouldn't require certain levels in other classes, and they shouldn't have ability score requirements.

[wayfare]

Prestige classes shouldn't require certain levels in other classes, and they shouldn't have ability score requirements.

Why?

I've often had players who try to take a level in a class just to bypass some restriction or gain some ability -- not for any role-playing reasons.

Making prestige classes more restrictive might have a balancing effect.

[JoshuaZ]

Why?

I've often had players who try to take a level in a class just to bypass some restriction or gain some ability -- not for any role-playing reasons.

Making prestige classes more restrictive might have a balancing effect.

Generally, PrCs don't have class levels because characters aren't aware of class levels, that's a metagame concept. So for example, if you have a PrC that deals with fighting undead, and it requires the ability to turn undead, it shouldn't matter if they got that from being a paladin or a cleric. Anyone should be able to learn how to modify their way of turning undead.

The issue of ability scores there's less of a good reason, it is more something that just isn't frequently done in 3.5. Note however that it is sometimes smuggled in by requiring a feat that has a specific value for an ability score. For example, there are PrCs which require Power Attack which requires a strength 13. Similarly, any PrC that requires casting spells of a certain level is implicitly saying "Int, char or wis at least k" where k is the minimum level to cast spells of that level. So I have less of a problem with this. But you should think carefully about why the PrC would have a minimum ability score.

Also, restricting players isn't going to make them be more likely to take classes based on roleplaying. People don't work that way. In general, giving people more options gives more opportunity for roleplaying. If people don't take advantage of it, they won't take advantage of it. You can't force people to roleplay.

[Temotei]

Why?

I've often had players who try to take a level in a class just to bypass some restriction or gain some ability -- not for any role-playing reasons.

Making prestige classes more restrictive might have a balancing effect.

Requiring an amount of levels in a certain class creates problems with multiclassing, which is huge in 3.5. Homebrew classes usually don't match up with classes from books, which leads to problems if you use homebrew. As well, people who have levels in prestige classes very similar to their class will get the shaft, even if they basically stay the same as if they had stayed in their previous class. Your players may not like those classes, which would lead to this class never being used, anyway (that's not a far-off thing, either; the fighter and the paladin are both pretty weak, so if your players like powerful things, they'll probably avoid those classes). That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure others will have something to add. It has been done.

Having ability scores as a requirement is just plain bad design, as bad rolls can put out characters easily. Also, what kind of fighter has 16 Charisma?

If you want prestige classes to be more restrictive, add more feat, BAB, and skill requirements.

This, perhaps, is a problem with the players, though, not the classes themselves. Maybe your players don't understand that you want them to role play their choices, rather than just choose a class at random because it has a feature they want. Ask them about it.

[Hawriel]

No there is nothing wrong with having a ability prereq.

Think of it this way the kid that was the champoin chess player in his state in highschool goes to a USMC recruting office. He's 5 foot 4, and weighs 110 pounds soking wet. Not only that he has asma. Yes he probly has an IQ of 140 but he cannot meet the physical demands of the Marines.

Stat wise he could have a 14 Int. however because of his small build and asma he has a 9 str and an 8 con. This person would not pass the recruters office.

There is a reason that 2nd ed had stat requierments for some classes. The consept of the class made so only some one of a sertant physical and mental ability could do it. Case in point the ranger. The ranger is a class devoted to the idea that this person is capable of serviving on his own. The ranger is self relient.

3rd ed is more dependant on stats. To be a good rogue you need a high dex and good wisdom. A PRC for a rogue would focus on one or two aspects of the rogue class. The Assassin or Spy are to examples. You need to be better than not just most but even some of the best out there.

It's no different than having stat requirments for feats. You eather have what it takes or you don't. In the end it will not matter. Because any player who whats to take a PRC regardless of the requirments are going to build their characters to meet them.

[Peregrine]

Ability score prerequisites are frowned upon for much the same reason specific classes are. It's not about what you have written on a character sheet; nobody in-game knows about your character sheet. It's about what you can do. "Str 13" is just a number; "Power Attack" is something you can do.

Of course, it's very easy to argue that "Str 13" is in fact something you can do, just as surely as "Balance 8 ranks" is more than just a number. And naturally, as the DM, you can merrily kick this guideline to the kerb if you wish.

But now down to the actual class.

The Knight-Champion

Prereqs: Paladin or Fighter 5+
Charisma 16+

Quite aside from the already-mentioned considerations of using ability score prerequisites, this doesn't seem right. Why is Cha 16 a prerequisite? None of the class's features require Charisma.

Fortitude: Average
Reflex: Good
Will: Poor

There's no such thing in official D&D as an "average" save progression. Are you houseruling one in?

Uncanny Dodge 1

This looks like a 3.0 holdover; in 3.5 (which you said in the other thread is what you're playing), it's "Uncanny Dodge" and "Improved Uncanny Dodge".

Level 2
Artful Lunge: The champion may move up to half his Movement Rate and still take a full attack action.

Hmm, it's a nice ability, but "lunge" and "full attack" don't seem to go together for me. I'd associate a name like "Artful Lunge" with something like "when an opponent moves nearby, you may take a 5-foot step as an immediate action and make an attack of opportunity against that opponent based on your new threatened area".

Level 3
Bonus Feat

It's chock full of bonus feats; while the feat list is small (or maybe because the feat list is small), I'd like the class more if it had more features instead.

Level 5
Champions Focus: The Champion may roll his initiative twice each encounter and choose the best result.

Pretty solid.

Level 9
Champions Rebuke: Once each round, if an opponent attacks the Knight-Champion and misses, the Knight
Champion may make an attack of opportunity against that foe.

Ditto. Both good features.

Level 10
Divine Edge: The Champion may automatically confirm any criticals it strikes

Nice, but not that strong. I think the capstone should be something more potent.

Bonus Feat List
Improved Initiative
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization

You ought to explicitly state whether a Knight-Champion counts as a fighter of a particular level for the purposes of qualifying for Weapon Spec. et al.

Imbue Weapon
Reqs: Wis: 14, Divine Spellcasting, Base Attack +5

Ability scores as feat prerequisites are always odd numbers in official material and most homebrew. Basically it means that an odd-numbered score gets you something the even number below doesn't (apart from "one step closer to the next score up").

You channel divine power into your weapon, striking with the fury of your chosen divinity. You can choose to lose any memorized spell to grant your weapon +1 enhancement bonus and +1d6 damage of a type chosen by your DM.

That's okay, but it's fairly weak if it's one fixed damage type; you're burning a feat and a flexible resource (spell slots) for an unvarying bonus. The benefit gained can therefore afford to be quite a bit stronger. Also, burning a higher-level spell slot should get a better result. I'm sure there are official spells that turn a weapon into a flaming/frost/etc. weapon. (I can't find them; anybody?) Use those to calibrate this feat against.

(By the way, your prereqs don't say you have to be a prepared caster, but your feat text assumes you memorise spells. What about spontaneous divine casters?)

Pierce Ward
Reqs: Cha 16, Divine Spellcasting 3+, Base Attack +8

Meaning caster level 3rd or 3rd-level divine spells?

The touch of your weapon releases a brief burst of divine power, cutting through a spell casters defenses. On a successful melee attack, you may choose to lose any memorized spell. On a success you manifest the effect of Dispel Magic upon your opponent (and only your opponent)

That's pretty nice, though my comment about scaling to higher or lower spell slots could apply here too. I might suggest requiring that it be at least a 2nd-level slot; using a 0- or 1st-level slot to dispel on a melee attack is quite powerful.

Shatter Ward
Reqs: Wis: 16, Cha 18, Divine Spellcasting 4+, Base attack 10+
As Pierce Ward, save that you must lose a spell of 3rd or 4th level and gain the benefit of Greater Dispel Magic.

Don't say "3rd or 4th", say "3rd or higher". If you let them use 3rd-level slots, they'll use 3rd-level slots until they don't have a choice, and there's no reason why a 5th-level slot shouldn't be able to be used in a desperate case.

[wayfare]

thanks for the input, peregrine!

1) I'll change Artful Lunge to "Champions Rush"
2) Is it ok to just allow access to the fighter bonus feat list?
3) Would it be ok to give a 1st level bonus to threat rangeto match the capstone?
4) Any ideas for a better capstone?