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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF]

    Normally, D&D has you attack everything with a simple d20+bonuses check, regardless of the enormousness of the target. You get a bonus to hit big things, because it's easier.

    But every beginning player of D&D that I've encountered has asked the same sort of thing: Can I hit the monster in the head? Why not? Can't I climb on the monster and hit its head?
    Spoiler
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    Soon they settle down and just chip away at the gigantic creature's ankle like everyone else.
    But that's not satisfactory.

    I thought I'd better ask before I got into this -
    Quote Originally Posted by Altair_the_Vexed View Post
    Q 444
    How does d20 / D&D / PF deal with climbing up on extremely large creatures? Are there any rules for a Shadow of the Colossus-style attack?

    (I understand that the grapple rules state that you can't grapple a creature more than two size categories higher than yourself.)
    Quote Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
    A 444
    It doesn't. There are no rules for such things. The best you can do is base it off of the Giantbane tactical feat from Complete Warrior.
    So, in the absence of published rules, how do we model taking on enormous creatures?

    I want to make up some easy to apply, balanced rules for fighting gargantuan and larger creatures in an interesting and dynamic way.

    What I have in mind so far - and I'm coming here to debate the wisdom of my plan and change it based on the input of the Playgrounders - is a two-part solution: The Combat Rodeo and Vulnerable Parts.

    Combat Rodeo (working title)
    For creatures more than two size categories larger than yourself, you may use a Climb or Balance (or Athletics or Acrobatics for PF) check at -5, in place of a Grapple check, applying all other rules for starting grappling (touch attack to initiate, provoking an attack of opportunity, etc, etc) to leap onto the creature.

    Having leapt aboard, you aren't able to damage the creature through grappling. The creature may make grapple checks (opposed by your Climb or Balance check) to throw you off as a free action.
    You are flatfooted while climbing or balancing on the creature.
    You must make a Climb or Balance check to move.
    The creature make attack you as normal, with an active grapple, or just continue shaking you off.
    You can tie or grappling hook a rope onto the creature with a successful Use Rope check, against its Grapple check. Using a rope to hold on to the creature grants a +5 bonus to Climb checks (negating the penalty).

    (I use the Pathfinder grapple rules in my games, they're simpler and easier to do - so in place of "grapple check", you can assume the use of the grapple defence DC from that ruleset.)

    ---

    Why do you want to be on this creature at all? That's where Vulnerable Parts come in.

    Vulnerable Parts
    Massive beasties covered in armour have soft spots - eyes, soft palate, ears, the joints, etc.
    The homebrewer should pick at least one Vulnerable Part per creature for every size category above Huge. Vulnerable Parts have a penalty to natural armour, and an equal bonus to damage - usually half the full natural armour of the creature. Certain Vulnerable Parts (eyes, ears) will impose a penalty to the creature if damaged. We'll work on that later.
    If you come within reach of a Vulnerable Part, you may attack it. The creature makes a grapple check as a free action to try to throw you off for every attack you make, and you must succeed at a balance or climb check to stay put.

    Knowing about the Vulnerable Parts of any given creature is a knowledge check of the appropriate type for the creature.

    ---

    So - that's my proposal. Sure, the wizard in the party can just disintegrate the colossal creature: but when that fails, or in games where that isn't an option, Combat Rodeo and the Vulnerable Parts is for you.
    Last edited by Altair_the_Vexed; 2010-06-11 at 07:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    But every beginning player of D&D that I've encountered has asked the same sort of thing: Can I hit the monster in the head? Why not? Can't I climb on the monster and hit its head?
    Why not? If the PC hits the monster, then it is up to the DM to describe what happens. I allow this sort of thing all the time. That why it is role-playing and not just roll-playing.

    For example, a PC wants to climb a roc, a Gargantuan Animal. If the PC makes the Climb check, there's no reason to disallow it. If the roc notices the PC, he bites at the PC until the PC falls off or dies. Conversely the Roc could take wing and shake the PC off. It's up to the DM to decide how the Roc reacts. Bribing the roc with food might make it more agreeable to being Climbed. Also, casting speak with animals might be useful.

    If the roc is otherwise occupied or doesn't care if some human is climbing up his leg or wing, then the PC has to decide what to do next. The DM has to role-play the monster appropriately. Conversely, the Roc could be intrigued by the PC and might just lift him up. Rocs aren't at all bright.

    Of course, not all monsters lend themselves to being climbed. A purple worm is long but probably not easy to climb. Of course, the PCs could try to catch a ride on a purple worm. Whether it works or not would depend on the situation. I don't see the DM's job as one that should necessarily thwart the PCs.

    A use rope check could be made to see if a PC can lasso a gargantuan creature. There could be a possibility of the rope breaking if the creature is extremely strong. An entangled creature could slip free with a successful Escape Artist check. Why do you need separate rules for all this when you could adapt the rules already available?

    Mostly you just have to figure out the appropriate DCs and you are on your way.

    Debby
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    Why not? If the PC hits the monster, then it is up to the DM to describe what happens. I allow this sort of thing all the time. That why it is role-playing and not just roll-playing.

    ...

    Mostly you just have to figure out the appropriate DCs and you are on your way.

    Debby
    Yes, that's why I've decided to assign the DC as the Grapple check of the climbed / balanced creature.

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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    I really like your idea, but I think that to make the fight really dynamic the checks should be much easier. Can I suggest a different system?

    Combat rodeo

    As a standard action you can attempt to climb aboard a creature. Make a Climb or Balance check, the result tells you the minimum size you can climb on.

    {table=head]Check|Size difference
    15|+4 and more
    20|+3
    25|+2
    30|+1
    40|0
    50|-1[/table]

    This way, even a low level character can reliably climb on a much bigger creature, but near epic adventurer could do almost impossible task like fighting while jumping on the shoulders of similar sized creatures.

    If the check succeed make an opposite Str check (if you used Climb) or an opposite Dex check (if you used Balance). Your check get a +2 bonus for every 5 ranks you have in the relevant skill. If you win the check, you climbed on the creature and can attempt to move in position to hit a vulnerable spot.

    The biggest problem i see with your system it's that grapple checks against much-bigger-than-you creatures are usually almost impossible due to their high BAB, strength and size modifier, this makes the mechanic difficult to use without severe specialization. Also, the whole point of climbing on a creature usually is to avoid a direct confrontation against its attacks and to put yourself in a position where it's hard for it to use its superior size and strength against you. In the very comic you quoted they address this problem, there is no way Legolas could ever do 5 consecutive grapple checks against an elephant.

    Once you are on the back of the creature as a move action you can attempt to move in position to strike a vulnerable spot. You must resist a shrug attempt from the creature (see further down) or fall from the creature and take falling damage.

    If you are in position to strike a vulnerable spot you can make a single attack as a standard action. Most spot are only particular effective for one or two hits, after that you must reposition yourself to strike a different spot or from a different angle.

    For the combat to be really dynamic instead of just a few rolls longer we must force the player to move and change position on the creature. Not only it gives us the chance to describe a spectacular action, it also enhance the chance of failure due to a new "shrug check" every time.

    The creature

    Every round, at the beginning of its turn the creature attempts to shrug off climbers as a free action. A new opposite check like the one that initiated the climb must be made,if the creature succeed the climber falls and takes falling damage. Other circumstances can force the climber to resist a new shrug attempt, it's always a free action for the creature.

    Furthermore, if the creature has limbs that can reach the climber, it can, as a full-round action, actively attempt to shrug off someone. The creature and the climber makes an opposite grapple check that's not modified by size. If the creature is successful, the climber falls.

    The normal shrug attempt should only have a slim chance to succeed, the player already spent a whole round to climb and put himself in position, he should be allowed a couple hits. The active shrug however is for when the DM's actually wants to stop the player, of course the check should be hard but not impossible.


    Vulnerable spots

    Il leave this to you for now

    Please let me know what you think of my thoughts! And you other playgrounders too!

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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    Races of War (online sourcebook -- source here) offers the following, just to give you an idea of what others have defined it as. Here's what is meant with regard to the Edge options:

    So what we're doing is actually making BAB mean something. It's supposed to represent the amount of combat skill you have, so let's work with that. From now on, if you have more BAB than the target of your attacks, you are considered to "Have the Edge" on that attack. Combat Maneuvers will perform better when used by someone with the Edge. So while anyone can attempt to Disarm an opponent (provoking an attack of opportunity and dropping the weapon on the ground on a successful opposed attack roll), a character with the Edge can disarm better (provoking no attack of opportunity and sending the weapon flying in a direction of his choice). In this manner, a character who takes full BAB classes always has a fundamental advantage in combat over characters who do other things.
    Grab On

    Sometimes, you want to attach yourself to a larger creature, getting inside their reach and then repeatedly stabbing them or simply weighing them down. As an attack action you may attempt to grab on to an opponent.

    Grabbing on to an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity and requires a check with the same bonuses as a melee attack. The DC to grab on to an opponent is their Touch AC plus their BAB. If you have 5 ranks of Climb or Ride, you get a +2 synergy bonus on this maneuver for each skill.

    Holding on: Once you've attached yourself to your opponent, you go wherever they go. Move in to their space, and move where they do automatically (this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity or count against your movement in any way). You may attack with any light or one handed weapon, and your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus against you.

    Being Held on to: If another creature has grabbed on to your character, their weight counts against your carrying capacity. If you're overloaded, you may be unable to move or even collapse until you shake your opponent off. You can attempt to attack a creature holding on to you, but your strength modifier is halved for such attacks and your attacks are at -4. You may attempt to shake your opponent off as an attack action by making a check with a bonus equal to your melee attack or Escape Artist and a DC of 10 + the greatest of your opponent's BAB, Climb Ranks, or Ride Ranks.

    Edge Options: If you have the edge on an opponent when you grab them, they may not attack you at all once you have grabbed on to them. Further, grabbing on to an opponent does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
    Hold Down

    Sometimes you want to pin an opponent to the ground. First, make a touch attack. Then, make a Grapple Check (BAB + Strength Modifier + Special Size Modifier) with a DC of 10 + Defender's Grapple Check Modifier. If you succeed, your opponent is pinned for one round. They can't move, and you may put ropes or manacles on them if you wish with an attack action. At the end of any turn you are pinning your opponent, you may inflict unarmed or constriction damage. With subsequent attack actions, you may attack with natural weapons or light weapons with no penalty.

    Escaping a Pin: If you're pinned you can attempt to fight back, but you're prone and you suffer an additional -4 penalty to attack the creature pinning you (generally a -8 total penalty to attack your attacker). You can get out with an attack action by making a Grapple or Escape Artist check with a DC of 10 + your opponent's Grapple Modifier.

    Edge Options: If you're pinning an opponent and your attacks have the edge, your opponent cannot attack you or anyone else until they get free. Furthermore, if anyone else attacks them, they are considered helpless.
    Lift

    Sometimes you want to put an opponent in your mouth or carry away a struggling princess. Make a touch attack and then make a Grapple Check with a DC equal to 10 + your opponent's Grapple modifier. If you succeed, your opponent is hefted into the air. You may move around freely while carrying your opponent (their weight counts against your limits of course). You may perform a coup de grace or swallow whole action on a character you have lifted, but doing so ends the lift whether it succeeds or fails.

    Escaping a Lift: When you've been lifted, you cannot move under your own power, but you can continue to attack. Attacks against the creature which has lifted you are at a -4 penalty. You can also attempt to escape with an attack action by making a Grapple or Escape Artist check with a DC of 10 + your opponent's Grapple Modifier.

    Edge Options: If you have the edge on an opponent you have lifted, they may not attack you or anyone else until they escape.
    Last edited by Jota; 2010-06-13 at 07:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    An alternate method is simply to not have creatures that absurdly huge. After all, other than stuff like disease or poison, you aren't going to be able to kill them. A wasp can try to sting me all day, the end result is either an escaped wasp (likely one I trapped and let out), or a dead wasp. It isn't going to kill me, at most it can force some swearing, and moving around to avoid pain. A swordsman should have the exact same problem against a colossal dragon, though scales make even that difficult.

    Have huge the largest size for creatures that can actually be fought directly. A dragon with a 50 foot wingspan that is maybe 20 feet long, of which 10 are tail could be fought and killed, and is certainly big enough for the terrifying beast image, but it could be decapitated, or even shot down. It wouldn't be easy, but certainly doable.

    As for anything bigger than that, siege engines and such can be surprisingly fun. One of the most fun battles that has ever happened under my GMing was against a massive flying serpent that was immune to hand weapons beyond pain. The way it went down was during a chase, involving getting shot at by a mortar in the back of a jeep while two people with powered armor and wire cut down trees on it, which would have been far less interesting if it was just flying around spewing fire while other people flew around and shot it. And as mentioned before, there is poison. That wasp may be unable to kill me, but a brown recluse bite just might, and its not as if it is able to do that through blood loss.

    I am not saying to avoid stuff like grab on. That should still be there, to go back to the huge dragon example, leaping on its back as it flies by and desperately clinging should be a tactic, if one that tends to be somewhat desperate. Similarly, vulnerable parts can also work, particularly with side affects. Fighting a giant is going to require more than several sword strikes to the torso, a spear to the eye might not kill it, but certainly will leave it in horrible pain, and a second one gets to blindness. Similarly, while one might not be able to cut through the ankle, hitting it from behind and leaving a deep gash is going to cripple movement. These features make things interesting, and should stay, but they shouldn't be required, and creatures so big that this sort of stuff is absolutely required should either not exist, or be few and far between, and crippled at absolute best without bringing in something like ramming from a warship. And even then they shouldn't extend to the equivalent of wasp attacking a human.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    Thanks Jota, it sure gives an hand on how to calibrate DCs. Too bad it seems to be more geared towards same-size normal fighting then cinematic SoC one, but it helps.


    @Knaight: You have some points, but still, your post seems just a big "Fighters can't have nice things". Using strictly mundane exemples (wasp VS human) or more modern circumstances (Jeep and Mortar) reflect that. In this settings the wasp is not just a normal wasp, is an Extraordinary (Ex)-Combat trained-Magical enhanced-Heroic wasp whose sting is as strong as a bullet.
    Of course climbing on top shouldn't be required but it shouldn't even be a desperate measure, just something they can do if they want, not inherently better or worse, unless they come up with a very good reason for it to be so.
    "In my humble opinion" of course

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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    Pikazul, your DCs mean that it is easier to climb onto the Tarrasque than onto a horse. I don't think that's right.
    When something is within two size categories of you, you just grapple, anyway.

    Jota's post of the RoW stuff seems to cover what I had in mind quite well - but not moving about on vast creatures, or any reason to do so.

    I'll happily use the mechanic for grabbing on, it's neat and tidy. I still want to use Climb and Balance to move around the big beastie, and have vulnerable spots to give people a reason to do this.

    Meanwhile, the rest of the party is pounding away at the creature's feet.

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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair_the_Vexed View Post
    Pikazul, your DCs mean that it is easier to climb onto the Tarrasque than onto a horse. I don't think that's right.
    When something is within two size categories of you, you just grapple, anyway.
    Yes, that's exactly what I intended. When you want to grapple or ride, you can use grapple or ride checks, when you want to fight on top of other creature you use different rules, and i think it's much much easier to fight on top of a slow-moving colossal creature then, say, duel while standing on the back of a running horse.
    However, your game, your rules, just want to explain why my reasoning seemed so off

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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    Trouble with your logic there, Pikazul, is that big creatures rock significantly more as they move than smaller ones do. Having been on both a horse and an elephant moving at a walk, the horse rocks significantly less than the elephant and i would presume this only gets fiercer as they move faster.

    Your argument is actually that speed rather than size should have some bearing, which is perfectly accurate and i wholeheartedly support but a biped like the tarrasque is going to rock around as it moves significantly more than a horse.

    As a contribution to the thread, Dragonmech uses the speed of the creature in miles per hour as the base for the test, along with other modifiers. I don't have access to the overlang movement tables right now, but that works nicely for the whole "whether you fall off or not" bit.
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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    I love this idea! I alsop love that you used DM of the Rings to drive your point!

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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    Found another one perhaps more in the spirit of what you were looking for.

    Original here, by Eiji.

    Transclusion for your convenience.

    Colossus Climber [Fighter, Tactical]

    Large opponents pose no problem to you, as you bravely scale their bodies and stab at their undersides, making it difficult for them to hit you in the process.

    Prerequisites: Climb 6 ranks, Balance 6 ranks, Improved Grapple.

    Benefit: With this tactical feat you can do three separate things when facing opponents at least two sizes larger than you.

    Body Climb: Make a grapple attempt, with size penalties reversed for the defender (so that the larger they are, the easier they are to grapple). If successful, you move into their space. They are not considered grappled, although you are. You have cover against the enemy you are currently climbing. To remove you the enemy can take a standard action to shake you off with a Strength check, and you may make Climb checks instead of Strength checks when opposing.

    Vital Strike: While climb an opponent you can take a full attack action to attempt to strike a critical blow against your opponent. Your critical threat range increases by +2, and you gain +4 to confirm your critical. After making a vital strike, regardless if it was a critical hit, you take a -5 penalty on climb checks to stay on for 1 round.

    Stop Hurting Yourself: If anyone attempts to attack you while climbing an opponent, you can choose to replace your AC by your Climb check against one attack, and the blow instead strikes against the creature you are climbing (who may be hurting itself, if it is the attacker). You can do this once a round. Afterwards, you take a -5 penalty to climb checks to stay on, for 1 round.

    Normal: You cannot climb large things normally.

    Special: A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    So far this is pretty awesome.

    Maybe we should offer some benefits to the really big creatures?

    Ie., a big creature could target more then one space? Or simply step on a smaller creature (even a human of that size could do this, even though they have no natural weapons)? If an attack that effects a radius doesn't encompass all the spaces that the larger creature occupies, then the radius attack must make a touch attack against the larger creature to see if they need to make a reflex save (otherwise the larger creature could just shift a bit to the left; which from a smaller creature's perspective, is 10ft. or so, enough to avoid a fireball, ie.)?
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-06-29 at 04:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Jota View Post
    Found another one perhaps more in the spirit of what you were looking for.

    Original here, by Eiji.

    Transclusion for your convenience.
    That's good stuff. I assume that as the gigantic opponent is not considered grappled, you don't get to deal damage inthe normal grappling way?
    In any case, I'd still want to make a lesser version of Body climb freely available to all - say with a -4 penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by imp_fireball View Post
    Maybe we should offer some benefits to the really big creatures?

    Ie., a big creature could target more then one space? Or simply step on a smaller creature (even a human of that size could do this, even though they have no natural weapons)? If an attack that effects a radius doesn't encompass all the spaces that the larger creature occupies, then the radius attack must make a touch attack against the larger creature to see if they need to make a reflex save (otherwise the larger creature could just shift a bit to the left; which from a smaller creature's perspective, is 10ft. or so, enough to avoid a fireball, ie.)?
    I see what you're getting at, but all of this could be a bit hard to apply - more checks and rolls can lead to longer, less exciting combats.

    How about just adding in the ability for creatures to attack targets in a number of squares equal to their reach divide by 10? (Minimum of 1, of course.)
    That would mean that colossal creatures with 20ft reach can hit two adjacent targets at once - which seems realistic.

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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    I'd be more inclined to suggest that large+ creatures could take a feat, with the simple prerequisites of being a Monstrous Feat, a Size of Large+ and a Strength of 20+.

    Take -5 penalties to Strength bonus to add additional squares on their attack area. If you think about it, it actually fits the "ponderous sweeps" image most of us have for giants.

    That said, i always was a fan of the Hulking Brute class.

    We once tried using an area of effect attack on really large critter's melee attacks, but that was...brutal

    Suffice to say that Fighters and Barbarians needed Evasion to function beyond a certain level...monks actually got better though.
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    Default Re: Help! Gigantic monsters! - making big monster fights more dynamic [d20 / D&D / PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    I'd be more inclined to suggest that large+ creatures could take a feat, with the simple prerequisites of being a Monstrous Feat, a Size of Large+ and a Strength of 20+.

    Take -5 penalties to Strength bonus to add additional squares on their attack area. If you think about it, it actually fits the "ponderous sweeps" image most of us have for giants.

    That said, i always was a fan of the Hulking Brute class.

    We once tried using an area of effect attack on really large critter's melee attacks, but that was...brutal

    Suffice to say that Fighters and Barbarians needed Evasion to function beyond a certain level...monks actually got better though.
    Well it makes sense, because no one in there right mind would face something that weighs ten times as much as them and has equal dexterity to themselves.

    That would mean that colossal creatures with 20ft reach can hit two adjacent targets at once - which seems realistic.
    Sounds fair. A monster feat could extend this (sweep). A collossal creature can also step on any creature two or three size categories smaller then them (effects one space, reflex save to avoid) - or maybe that should just be overrun with trample?

    I still think the touch attack to hit large creatures seems fair though. Large creatures can avoid area of effect attacks as if they were projectiles sometimes.
    -----

    Larger creatures should move faster. Instead of increasing speed for being larger then medium, a creature should be able to move the same number of spaces, except those spaces are spaces that they occupy. Effectively, a size large creature moves twice as fast and a collossal creature moves 6 times as fast! This would apply to bipedal/humanoid creatures, whereas quadrupeds would just be assigned greater base speed (so 70ft. for a quadruped is still just 14 spaces, whereas 30ft. for a 30ft.x30ft. collosssal creature is 36 spaces; or less confusing, 6 spaces for a collossal creature is 180ft.).

    Also, creatures add double their height to falling increments. Thus a 100ft. tall collossal creature must fall 4000ft. in order to suffer the full 20d6 falling damage or 200ft. to suffer 1d6 falling damage, compared to a 5ft. tall medium creature's 10ft. for 1d6 falling damage.

    For quadrupeds, the value is either arbitrary, or uses minimum height for their size (65ft. if they are collossal, etc.; or their given height, whatever is greater).

    large+ creatures could take a feat, with the simple prerequisites of being a Monstrous Feat, a Size of Large+ and a Strength of 20
    Maybe natural reach should just be 15ft. or greater. Strength isn't necessary. Large creatures aren't any more prone to sweeping strikes then medium creatures and aren't too hard to optimize. Huge creatures though are different, of course.

    Granted, with the rules for targeting multiple spaces above, a large or huge creature can target everyone in one space which is decent.

    Call the combat maneuver 'overpower' or 'overwhelm'. Maybe impose a -5 penalty to attacks or strength penalty (attacks and damage)?

    and i think it's much much easier to fight on top of a slow-moving colossal creature then, say, duel while standing on the back of a running horse.
    You can do both on both creatures. It's just that making a ride check means you are attempting to control either creature and the DC is probably particularly high if you are fighting another creature riding the same creature (unless both agree on where it is going; the two creatures can make opposed ride checks to have the one creature kick one of them off it). It's lower if you are balancing, since you need only succeed on a balance to stand still or move or whatever and then actually making attacks and defending doesn't provoke additional balance/climb checks (although getting rid of flatfooted condition is a higher balance/climb DC).
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-06-29 at 06:42 PM.

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