AC Rules

[Khellendross]

I've noticed some people try not to focus on AC unless they trying to make an AC build since at high end game AC is easy to hit with the aid of magic or high HD and STR, etc.

However for the low end and even mid level range AC can still be very helpful. I saw these in the Arms and Equipment guide and wondered if they could work like this.

Dastana: This pair of metal bracers can be worn
in addition to some other types of armor to provide
an additional armor bonus that stacks with both the
foundation armor and any shield worn. You can wear
dastana with padded, leather, or chain shirt armor.
You need the Armor Proficiency (light) feat to wear
dastana without penalty.

It provides a +1 AC bonus. I guess what I'm trying to ask is could you with the MIC rules make a pair of Dastana braces with the enchantments of bracers of armor. If you are a class that wears light armor like swordsage with a chain shirt and these bracers you'd be getting 10+dex+wis+chainshirt and magic bonus+Dastana bracers of armor.

The normal rules say you can't wear bracers of armor and have them stack with armor but wearing these bracers allow it. So would it work or no?

[2xMachina]

It's not the bracers of armor you want. It's the dastana +5. Less rule lawyer'ing too.

EDIT:Hmm, same cost...

[KillianHawkeye]

It's not the bracers of armor you want. It's the dastana +5. Less rule lawyer'ing too.

Agreed. Just enchant them like normal armor.

[Khellendross]

"Less rule lawyer'ing too."

It wouldn't be that since "rule lawyer'ing" is something different. It's more munchkining than anything and I was saying bracers of armor because they get up to +8 over +5 but making it +5 and using the normal rules is simpler.

[Mongoose87]

If the bonus is typed, you may be out of luck.

[2xMachina]

"Less rule lawyer'ing too."

It wouldn't be that since "rule lawyer'ing" is something different. It's more munchkining than anything and I was saying bracers of armor because they get up to +8 over +5 but making it +5 and using the normal rules is simpler.

Sorry, it's just that I take Rules Lawyer'ing to be something that needs to have the DM convinced.

Bracers of armor doesn't normally stack, and having to convince the DM that dastana bracers of armor stacks is a bit harder than convince the DM that the dastana +5 stacks (since it says it would)

[Yuki Akuma]

This isn't rules lawyering. This is trying to convince your DM to make a house rule. There's a difference.

[KillianHawkeye]

This isn't rules lawyering. This is trying to convince your DM to make a house rule. There's a difference.

More like "rules lobbying", eh?

[Curmudgeon]

It provides a +1 AC bonus. I guess what I'm trying to ask is could you with the MIC rules make a pair of Dastana braces with the enchantments of bracers of armor.
...
The normal rules say you can't wear bracers of armor and have them stack with armor but wearing these bracers allow it. So would it work or no?

Not by the Magic Item Compendium rules, because of this footnote:

² Cannot be added to any item that already provides a (nonmagical) armor or shield bonus to AC.

So once you've got that +1 armor bonus, attempting to add magical armor bonuses on top just fails.

[Dr Bwaa]

You can +5 your dastana as though it were armor, as has been suggested. However, it is an Armor Enhancement Bonus, so it does not stack with any +X that you have on your armor, just the regular armor bonus stacks (as stated explicitly in the description). The same goes for the chain-skirt-thing that works the same way (A&EG or OE I think; I don't remember)--it stacks with dastana and armor, but don't bother enchanting more than one of them (except that you can put other modifiers on them for cheap, which may be worth it). Just remember that only the normal armor bonus stacks with other armor bonuses; any enhancement bonus does not stack with other Armor Enhancement Bonuses.

[2xMachina]

I thought Enhancement bonus improves the item, and not you, thus different enhancement to different armor stacks?

Like, Dastana +5 is a Dastana with +6AC to you.

[Khellendross]

It's possible that it could stack even with the +5 since the item it's self changes the normal rules. I guess it would be up to the DM to decide one way or the other since it's not 100% clear one way or the other. You could just enchant it with a different type of bonus for extra cost. Giving it the ring of protection stats for example is viable according to the MIC and would free up a ring slot or pay a even higher price to make it insight or something. I'm pretty sure their are items that do that.

[2xMachina]

You do know MIC lets you have, say, a Ring of Evasion and Protection +5 which costs just as much as a ring of evasion and ring of protection +5?

[Zeta Kai]

Am I the only one who thought that this thread was about AC>THAC0?

AC Rules!

[AstralFire]

Zeta?

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You're a dork.

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But that's why we love you. I think.

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Or so I hear.

[AmberVael]

You can +5 your dastana as though it were armor, as has been suggested. However, it is an Armor Enhancement Bonus, so it does not stack with any +X that you have on your armor, just the regular armor bonus stacks (as stated explicitly in the description). The same goes for the chain-skirt-thing that works the same way (A&EG or OE I think; I don't remember)--it stacks with dastana and armor, but don't bother enchanting more than one of them (except that you can put other modifiers on them for cheap, which may be worth it). Just remember that only the normal armor bonus stacks with other armor bonuses; any enhancement bonus does not stack with other Armor Enhancement Bonuses.

Enhancement Bonus
Enhancement Bonuses do not apply to you, they apply to the relevant statistic in question (such as the bonus the armor or shield gives to you.)

However, you can still only get one armor bonus (enhanced or not) at a time.

However, Dastana specifically state that they stack with certain types of armor.

As such, you can indeed enhance Dastana and an acceptable piece of armor and benefit from both at once.

[Coidzor]

(except that you can put other modifiers on them for cheap, which may be worth it).

May?

[Khellendross]

I think Vael is right and it seems to be the general agreement. I'm just shocked I've never seen it mentioned before. I really doubt I was the first to notice this extra means of AC.

[AmberVael]

I think Vael is right and it seems to be the general agreement. I'm just shocked I've never seen it mentioned before. I really doubt I was the first to notice this extra means of AC.

I'd imagine most people on these boards ignore it, as Dastana are from a 3.0 book. Those tend to be considered less acceptable around here for use in 3.5 games, though some people still bring them up from time to time.

[2xMachina]

3.0! Legal until updated!

[Coidzor]

I think most people just forget about it due to being from a 3.0 source, yeah.

Though there is some sort of rule that makes it part of 3.5 if it's 3.0 that didn't receive an update. Where was that from anyway?

I pointed our rogue and bard in their direction in the last 3.5 game I played in and they were allowed.

Never heard of that skirt thing that was mentioned before though.

Anyone got a name for that?

[senrath]

I think most people just forget about it due to being from a 3.0 source, yeah.

Though there is some sort of rule that makes it part of 3.5 if it's 3.0 that didn't receive an update. Where was that from anyway?

I pointed our rogue and bard in their direction in the last 3.5 game I played in and they were allowed.

As the person who ninja'd/swordsage'd/whatever'd you said, yes. 3.0 sources are legal in 3.5 if they never received an update. However, many DMs outright ban most 3.0 material that wasn't updated.

[AmberVael]

3.0! Legal until updated!

I think most people just forget about it due to being from a 3.0 source, yeah.

Though isn't there some sort of rule that makes it part of 3.5 if it's 3.0 that didn't receive an update?

Yeah, it's legal, technically. I still think that's the reason most people avoid it though.
That's why I avoid it, at least. It feels kind of uncomfortable and cheap in all but the most optimized groups.

Edit:

Anyone got a name for that?

Chahar-Aina. Works exactly the same as Dastana, really (and I don't think they stack.)

[Curmudgeon]

3.0! Legal until updated!

Depends on your DM's view of what "minor adjustments" the dastana requires. From page 4 of the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide:

This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.

[2xMachina]

Well, there is no adjustment needed actually. It says it gives armor bonus, that stacks with your armor. It's an odd rule, yes, but there are other stuff that are specific.

[Curmudgeon]

Well, there is no adjustment needed actually. It says it gives armor bonus, that stacks with your armor. It's an odd rule, yes, but there are other stuff that are specific.

And that's the case you'd make to your DM. They just don't have to buy it.

[Khellendross]

I'm actually the DM. Now that I know it's legit to use....I still have to decide if I want to allow it. If I use it myself on a badguy npc then I have to let the players use it.

[Coidzor]

And that's the case you'd make to your DM. They just don't have to buy it.

Something like this though, gotta admit, one of the sillier things to ban outright considering how situational it is.

Though Mithril Dastana would be one of first armor most squishies could buy that wouldn't give them an ASF. I think.

Actually, that might actually be the first place minor adjustments would come up... no, wait, since light armor and shields are both 1000 gp to be made from mithral, no price difference to lead to much of a houserule there. Still would need to make a minor adjustment I think to attach a "made out of mithral" price to them, maybe. Minor by minor standards though.

[2xMachina]

Something like this though, gotta admit, one of the sillier things to ban outright considering how situational it is.

Though Mithril Dastana would be one of first armor most squishies could buy that wouldn't give them an ASF. I think.

Actually, that might actually be the first place minor adjustments would come up... no, wait, since light armor and shields are both 1000 gp to be made from mithral, no price difference to lead to much of a houserule there. Still would need to make a minor adjustment I think to attach a "made out of mithral" price to them, maybe. Minor by minor standards though.

???

Mithral Dastana is overkill. Masterwork is enough for 0ACP/ASF.
Mithral Chain shirt has 10% ASF.

[Coidzor]

I was thinking I had forgotten something, due to thinking there was a way to get it sooner than a fair bit to level 3. But...

Masterwork Armor

Just as with weapons, you can purchase or craft masterwork versions of armor or shields. Such a well-made item functions like the normal version, except that its armor check penalty is lessened by 1.

Didn't see anything on the SRD about lowering Arcane Spell Failure %. And padded armor has ASF without ACP, so ASF isn't a function of ACP.

I remember the need for a way to get rid of ASF came up because it didn't count as armor so the bard couldn't just ignore the ASF from them.

Or did I forget the stats on Dastana and they don't actually have ASF, just ACP?