Optimizing the Tarrasque

[Marriclay]

Pretty much started over here

You read that title right. What I want with this thread is to ask the playground - What would you swap out the tarrasque's feat selection for? He has 17 feats, many of which are absolutely useless (He took toughness 6 times. Come on.) and quite frankly this makes him a wimp, relying only on his natural abilities.

So, what would you swap the tarrasque's feats out for? keep in mind here, he can get epic or monstrous feats, so don't limit yourself. we want to make him a challenging opponent, without actually changing his challenge rating!

let us assume the following

- The party has a charger barbarian Half-Ogre
- The Arcanaist is a Wizard/Archmage
- An unoptimized cleric, but he knows what he's doing in a battle
- A Factotum
- And a VoP Monk

They are all level 20. defeat them using only the tarrasque's new feats and skills. No adding levels or taking them away (For whatever reason).

Also, The Tarrasque gets 10 epic feats, 7 normal feats. May be useful to know. Thank you Volthawk

[bobspldbckwrds]

yays!!! +1

[Mystic Muse]

we want to make him a challenging opponent, without actually changing his challenge rating!

Not hard to do. You can give him a lot of stuff and keep him under CR 20.

Now, for this optimization challenge we need a bit of info. CR is completely dependant on the party makeup. For example, we can't give him flying against a group of VOP Monks. (Probably a bad example but my point stands)

[Arbitrarity]

Get some Shape Soulmeld and Bind Chakra to get flight and perhaps a ranged attack. Optimally, you'd get Manticore Belt dual-bound to Totem and Waist Chakra, but that's not happening without multiclassing.
Say... Shape Soulmeld 3 times, Bonus Essentia and Epic Essentia, and Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders). Shape Pegasus Cloak, and throw all the essentia you can into it. Consider Expanded Soulmeld Capacity for 50 ft fly speed. The other Soulmelds can be something situationally useful, not sure what atm. Perhaps take Open Heart Chakra and stuff a Shedu Crown there, for 24 rounds of Etherealness/day.

If you want to be stupid, Vow of Poverty would be nice

[Salbazier]

Why not assume the standart party make up. You know, BSF, batman, healbot, skillmonkey, maybe with a waste of space or a bard

[PId6]

Improved Initiative -> Dire Charge
Martial Study (Wall of Blades)
Martial Study (Iron Heart Surge)
Martial Stance (Step of the Wind)
Martial Study (Searing Charge)
Adaptive Style - To recover as needed.

[Mystic Muse]

Why not assume the standart party make up. You know, BSF, batman, healbot, skillmonkey, maybe with a waste of space or a bard

It's best do define these things before hand rather than leaving them out in the open. However, this will be the party makeup and the waste of space will be an unoptimized Truenamer. (you did say waste of space.)

[Arbitrarity]

Martial Study (Wall of Blades)
Martial Study (Iron Heart Surge)
Martial Stance (Step of the Wind)
Martial Study (Searing Charge)
Adaptive Style - To recover as needed.

Can't take adaptive style, requires a swordsage, warblade, or crusader level. A good stance would be nice...

Say... Martial Study(Foehammer), Martial Stance(Thicket of Blades), Martial Study(Wall of Blades), Martial Study(Iron Heart Surge), and Swift Recovery or something?

Oooh, mageslayer, as well.

That's 4-5 feats, and another 6-7 from Incarnum. We still have a few to go.

[Marriclay]

It's best do define these things before hand rather than leaving them out in the open. However, this will be the party makeup and the waste of space will be an unoptimized Truenamer. (you did say waste of space.)

Yes, let us assume the following

- The party has a charger barbarian Half-Ogre
- The Arcanaist is a Wizard/Archmage
- An unoptimized cleric, but he knows what he's doing in a battle
- A Factotum
- And a Truenamer

They are all level 20. defeat them using only the tarrasque's new feats and skills. No adding levels or taking them away (For whatever reason).

[PId6]

- And a Truenamer

They are all level 20.

Oh god we're all doomed.

[Volthawk]

The Tarrasque gets 10 epic feats, 7 normal feats. May be useful.

[Marriclay]

edited the OP to reflect the Assumptions

[Knaight]

Anyone remember where the last thread was, Refeat the Tarrasque or something? I don't remember the title and am not finding it on search, but it has good advice, and in the end you have an incarnum abusing spellfire wielding Tarrasque that could take down a very large group of standard Tarrasques.

[PId6]

Problem: The Truenamer can Gate in up to two Solars per round for no cost. I don't think the Terrasque can compete with that without massive cheese of some kind.

[Arbitrarity]

Yes, let us assume the following

- The party has a charger barbarian Half-Ogre
- The Arcanaist is a Wizard/Archmage
- An unoptimized cleric, but he knows what he's doing in a battle
- A Factotum
- And a Truenamer

They are all level 20. defeat them using only the tarrasque's new feats and skills. No adding levels or taking them away (For whatever reason).

So, feats are...
Martial Study(Foehammer), Martial Stance(Thicket of Blades), Martial Study(Wall of Blades), Martial Study(Iron Heart Surge), Shape Soulmeld (Shedu Crown, Pegasus Cloak, ???), Bonus Essentia and Epic Essentia, and Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders), Open Heart Chakra, Power Attack, Mage Slayer, Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and 3 more.

Tarrasque turns Ethereal, sneaks up on wizard by flying. Appears as a free action, owns face (read: Uses liberal amounts of Full Attack with Power Attack. (average 105 damage BEFORE power attack. Add 6 damage/PA point, which is probably around 20, for 200+ damage. Wizard has... less than that). Note this only works on a mediocre wizard/archmage, not an uber one. Repeats on Factotum, then cleric.

Block Charger each round using Stand Still with reach. Any caster trying to cast in threatened area is owned by Mage Slayer, and they can't run, thanks to Stand Still and Thicket of Blades.

[Marriclay]

Problem: The Truenamer can Gate in up to two Solars per round for no cost. I don't think the Terrasque can compete with that without massive cheese of some kind.

hmm. We want someone wh is useless at level 20 for that final spot. got any suggestions? gating in a pair of solars every round is way beyond waste of space

maybe a CW samurai...

[PId6]

hmm. We want someone wh is useless at level 20 for that final spot. got any suggestions? gating in a pair of solars every round is way beyond waste of space

maybe a CW samurai...

Well, it might optimize Intimidate and scare the Terrasque to death...

[Mystic Muse]

Okay, a class that's genuinely useless no matter what campaign they're in and will do absolutely nothing against the Tarrasque plus worse than Truenamer.



.......Monk?

[Marriclay]

Okay, a class that's genuinely useless no matter what campaign they're in and will do absolutely nothing against the Tarrasque plus worse than Truenamer.



.......Monk?

perfect

[Eldariel]

This ancient thread may be of interest. Here's the fabled image:

Spoiler

Show

But yeah, if you're reworking it entirely, give it:
- All its ranks in Spot (that'll mean it can see invisible things without trying and sometimes beat the "Pierce Illusions" DC)
- Dire Charge
- Steadfast Determination
- MS: Balance in the Sky/Dragon Wings/SS: Phoenix Cloak/SS: Manticore Belt (Manticore Belt comes free with a ranged attack too)
- SS: Phase Cloak

[Arbitrarity]

Manticore belt requires a binding to Totem Chakra to grant a ranged attack, which big T is unable to get. Also, Pegasus wings give better fly manueverability, though I guess the flickery Etheralness of Phase Cloak's shoulder bind is better.

So then... SS: Manticore Belt(Fly Speed 40!), SS: Keeneye Lenses(True seeing!), SS: Phase Cloak (Go ethereal during all movement!), Bonus Essentia, Epic Essentia, Open Greater Chakra(Waist), open Lesser Chakra(Shoulders), Open Soul Chakra, Combat Reflexes, Spellcasting Harrier

Good options include: SS: Crystal Helm, Open Least Chakra(Crown) to give all attacks do Force damage!, SS: Sphinx Claws, Open Least Chakra(Hands), for Pounce, SS: Shedu Crown, Open Heart Chakra, for 24 rounds of Etherealness per day, return to material as a free action.

Eh, I disagree. Take Pegasus Cloak, Keeneye Lenses, Crystal Helm, Shedu Crown, the essentia feats, combat reflexes, spellcasting Harrier, that's 12 feats.
You now fly 40 ft (Average maneuverability), have True Seeing, can turn Ethereal as a standard action, and unethereal as a free action, and your attacks all are Force.

[deuxhero]

You have a full caster alongside a VoP. Could prove iffy.

[Cogidubnus]

This VoP fix. No alignment restrictions, +20 to AC, Flight, +5 enchancement to all attack AND a limited array of special abilities, +5 resistance. It'd be untouchable.

[Hague]

Here we go:

(Improved Unarmed Attack is a requirement here, but does it need it to get this attack?) && Power Attack->Thunderclap ( 5x48= 240 ft cone DC 46 vs Fort or Deafened, fail by 5 or more, knocked down)

Gape of the Serpent (Swallow whole works on creatures of it's own size but requires multiple grapple checks. Mmm! Colossal dragons are tasty!)

Multigrab -> Greater Multigrab (No penalty for snatching up multiples)

Multiattack -> Improved Multiattack

Endurance -> Steadfast Determination (+12 to Will saves as Con is used as a bonus instead of Wisdom )

Epic Will[Epic]

Toughness -> Pain Mastery (Good luck, as you continue to deal damage against this regenerating monster, it gains +2 Strength every 50 damage you deal to it for the duration of the encounter)

Improved Initiative-> Dire Charge[Epic]

Rapidstrike (For extra grabby swallowy action.)

Large and in Charge (If Improved Unarmed Strike isn't required for Thunderclap)

[Runestar]

Don't bother too much with grappling, I am fairly sure every lv20 party and their grandma will have rings of freedom of movement, or can at least access said spell in a heartbeat.

[Hague]

I'm not making it into a creature that's designed to beat a level 20 party. It's a creature designed to grab and eat things because that's what it does. Goes on a rampage, eats a buncha stuff and then goes beddy bye. The problem with the original was that it wasn't enough like a city-crushing monster. This thing reminds me of the Incredible Hulk right now. I wanted to give it Dust Cloud so that it could beat its tail on the ground and make a 240 ft wide cloud, but it needs 3 more dex to have it. Do those summoned Solar angels have Freedom of Movement? If not, they'll make tasty snacks. Needs a ranged weapon? Why? It can just throw stuff at them. Multigrab a pair of boulders and throw them. I came into this thing thinking that it should be optimized and still behave like the original described creature. Not to stuff it full of unthemely feats.

Also, what happens when a flying creature gets a knock-down effect? According to the weather rules from Rules Compendium, the closest thing I could find was being knocked down by wind and being forced to move 1d6x 10 ft. Which seems a little weak, considering the strength of this thing's Thunderclap.

Hell, I'd give this sucker an Antimagic field if I could.

Edit: Kinda wish I could give this guy class levels in Hulking Hurler.

[mint]

This ancient thread may be of interest. Here's the fabled image:

Spoiler

Show

But yeah, if you're reworking it entirely, give it:
- All its ranks in Spot (that'll mean it can see invisible things without trying and sometimes beat the "Pierce Illusions" DC)
- Dire Charge
- Steadfast Determination
- MS: Balance in the Sky/Dragon Wings/SS: Phoenix Cloak/SS: Manticore Belt (Manticore Belt comes free with a ranged attack too)
- SS: Phase Cloak

I'm skurd

[Marriclay]

I'm skurd

Meh too! Hold meh!

[Morph Bark]

I don't suppose there is any way you could optimize the Tarrasque against a Wizard 20, Cleric 20, Druid 20, Archivist 20, Erudite 20 (with Spell-to-Power) and Psionic Artificer 20?

[Jack_Simth]

I don't suppose there is any way you could optimize the Tarrasque against a Wizard 20, Cleric 20, Druid 20, Archivist 20, Erudite 20 (with Spell-to-Power) and Psionic Artificer 20?

Umm.... well, if you start replacing Magical Beast Hit dice with class levels, probably. But we're starting with a Core CR 20 beasty, and you're having it face a party of six ECL 20 characters ... and all of those being tier 1 or better. So not AND still have it be CR 20, no.