[3.5] Gestalt hunter

[Fidelacchius]

So in addition to me, I'm bringing a friend to the same campaign as the one featured in this post.

She plays a hunter in WOW and wants to have similar abilities and character style in this game. That means a pet, and ranged attacking with a bow. I'm thinking either Ranger//Scout, or Fighter//Scout, with the wild cohort feat, PrCing into Order of the Bow, and Deepwood Sniper. The DM is going to suggest a Druid variant (either of the ones from UA) and fighter. Problem is I don't really know how to build a good ranged attacker, so help?

[deuxhero]

Mystic Wildshape Ranger+wild cohort is all you need.

[Eldariel]

Swift Hunter with Wild Cohort. Done. Alternatively, you can use other decent Archery bases like a base class mishmash (Rngr/Barb/Ftr) or a Warblade; they work better at long ranges than Swift Hunters, which are limited to 60' efficiency.

3.5 Order of the Bow Initiate (in Complete Warrior) is a trap; don't go there. 3.0 version in Sword & Fist is fine though. Deepwood Sniper, on the other hand, is fine but not on a Swift Hunter chassis. I'm assuming she doesn't want a spellcaster (Cleric, Archivist, Sublime Chord, et co. all make for fine archers)? See:
Archery Handbook (I'll finish it, honest!)
KSB Snow Owl's Archer Builds (note that you can just add Wild Cohort to any build and get a fully competitive pet for all levels)


Though in Gestalt, you really want one side of casting. So consider: Ranger/etc. // Cleric for example

[Fidelacchius]

Swift Hunter with Wild Cohort. Done. Alternatively, you can use other decent Archery bases like a base class mishmash (Rngr/Barb/Ftr) or a Warblade; they work better at long ranges than Swift Hunters, which are limited to 60' efficiency.

3.5 Order of the Bow Initiate (in Complete Warrior) is a trap; don't go there. 3.0 version in Sword & Fist is fine though. Deepwood Sniper, on the other hand, is fine but not on a Swift Hunter chassis. I'm assuming she doesn't want a spellcaster (Cleric, Archivist, Sublime Chord, et co. all make for fine archers)? See:
Archery Handbook (I'll finish it, honest!)
KSB Snow Owl's Archer Builds (note that you can just add Wild Cohort to any build and get a fully competitive pet for all levels)


Though in Gestalt, you really want one side of casting. So consider: Ranger/etc. // Cleric for example

I'll try, but I really don't think she'll go for the caster thing, though maybe the druid...

I don't know if the swift hunter feat will be allowed. Class combining feats seem broken in a gestalt campaign, seems like the kind of thing my GM would ban.

Given that, how about a Ranger//Scout PrC into Deepwood sniper, and Wildrunner.

And ToB is permabanned form all his campaigns. Of course he always plays one in every 3.5 campaign HE plays in.

For Race, I'm thinking Draconic Wood Elf

[Coidzor]

I don't know if the swift hunter feat will be allowed. Class combining feats seem broken in a gestalt campaign, seems like the kind of thing my GM would ban.

As long as you keep them on the same side of the gestalt it's usually considered kosher. And, hey, worth a shot to at least investigate it as an option.

If she just wants to be ranged, Mystic Ranger (from one of the 300 series of Dragon) is good, though it would need the wild cohort feat. Or to start at a high enough level for Sword of the Arcane Order, Obtain Familiar, and one of the better familiar feats to get her a fighty familiar. If she'd go for that, which she sounds like she might not want the wizard casting necessary/feat investment to get the familiar. But Ranger spells if you have access to Spell Compendium are really, really great for the class, and mystic ranger gets more and at a faster rate at the cost of melee proficiencies and some slight delays.

Given that, how about a Ranger//Scout PrC into Deepwood sniper, and Wildrunner.

You'd probably want to dip into Fighter on the Ranger side for additional archery feats, can't quite remember what sort of feat totals you'd be looking at offhand. Can't comment more than that though.

And ToB is permabanned form all his campaigns. Of course he always plays one in every 3.5 campaign HE plays in.

Curious, quite curious.

[Philistine]

The thing is, Ranger and Scout have a lot of overlapping abilities. A lot of overlap. That means you don't gain much by combining them in gestalt; what you really want are classes that complement each other, shore up each others' weaknesses. For example, Druid//Monk gets all the awesomeness of a Druid plus a bunch of passive bonuses from the Monk.

Also - while your particular DM might disallow it, I don't see how Swift Hunter would (or even could) be particularly "broken," even in gestalt. I would totally try to get the feat okayed for a Ranger 1/Scout x//(something), with the other half being perhaps Fighter (for feats and BAB) or Cleric (for buffs, taking Travel and Knowledge Devotions) and the Wild Cohort feat to gain a pet.

One thing you can't do is gestalt 2 PrCs at the same level - so you can't get both Deepwood Sniper and Wildrunner. Or at least, not all 10 levels of both of them.

[Fidelacchius]

One thing you can't do is gestalt 2 PrCs at the same level - so you can't get both Deepwood Sniper and Wildrunner. Or at least, not all 10 levels of both of them.

You can in this game.

[Philistine]

If your DM allows that, then I really can't imagine why he'd ban Swift Hunter.

Or ToB, for that matter.

[Fidelacchius]

If your DM allows that, then I really can't imagine why he'd ban Swift Hunter.

Or ToB, for that matter.

Hey, I never said he was a logical being. Gods often aren't. But yeah I have hope that he'll allow the feat. But basically, his problem with ToB is that it makes Physical attackers as good as spell casters, except that they never run out of spells. In fact if you're a warblade, you chain chain maneuvers all day long, no problem.

With casters, if he wants to stop them he just throws endless monsters at them, knowing they'll eventually run out of spells. Or attacks us when or before the casters are prepping spells for the next day.

[Greenish]

Hey, I never said he was a logical being. Gods often aren't. But yeah I have hope that he'll allow the feat. But basically, his problem with ToB is that it makes Physical attackers as good as spell casters, except that they never run out of spells. In fact if you're a warblade, you chain chain maneuvers all day long, no problem.

With casters, if he wants to stop them he just throws endless monsters at them, knowing they'll eventually run out of spells. Or attacks us when or before the casters are prepping spells for the next day.

But maneuvers aren't even close to being as strong as spells?

[Coidzor]

OP:In that case, you might want to look at a 3 or 5 level PRC to take after Ranger 5 or 6 on that end, as there's not much useful until 9 when you get evasion. Quite possibly, something that advances the animal companion or possibly gets a mount of some sort that the animal companion can jive with. I can't recall any pet or mount handbooks or guides offhand though, but I'm also interested in them as well if anyone else out there does have some pertinent links or info.


Edit: Um. Also, see what you can do about the DM himself if he really does think of himself as a deity.

[Quietus]

But maneuvers aren't even close to being as strong as spells?

In damage, in a low-optimization setting, they can be.

[Greenish]

In damage, in a low-optimization setting, they can be.

Damage sphamage.

Besides, the much-disparaged Fireball alone makes Desert Wind AoE strikes look kinda silly.

[Fidelacchius]

Edit: Um. Also, see what you can do about the DM himself if he really does think of himself as a deity.

He doesn't, just a joke.

[Eldariel]

Mystic Ranger 10/Deepwood Sniper 10//Fighter 4/Barbarian 2/Pious Templar 4/Peerless Archer 3/Shadowdancer 1/Order of the Bow Initiate X seems fairly good, then. Ranger handles skills and the archery magic you want (in a "stealthy" fashion), Deepwood Sniper and Peerless Archer generate you the damage you want and the rest get you extra attacks, feats, damage, to hit and so on (you obviously want Ranged Weapon Mastery: Piercing [PHBII] and probably Knowledge Devotion too). And you're a respectable sneak. And worship Ehlonna.

[Fidelacchius]

If she just wants to be ranged, Mystic Ranger (from one of the 300 series of Dragon) is good, though it would need the wild cohort feat.

Sorry, don't have any of the magazines.

[Fidelacchius]

Since this is going to take place mostly in the city, how about Scout//Urban Ranger, with the ranger doing a 2 level dip into fighter at 7th to pick up two feats? Also considering Beastmaster as a prestige class to give the pet a boost.

I disagree that ranger and scout don't complement each other.

You get favored enemy, tracking, an animal companion, minor spell casting, and a good fort save from Ranger. You get defensive and offensive bonuses from scout, as well as extra skill points and good ways to use them, fast movement, and free movement.

You get some bonus feats from complimentary lists as well.

[Eldariel]

Since this is going to take place mostly in the city, how about Scout//Urban Ranger, with the ranger doing a 2 level dip into fighter at 7th to pick up two feats? Also considering Beastmaster as a prestige class to give the pet a boost.

I disagree that ranger and scout don't complement each other.

You get favored enemy, tracking, an animal companion, minor spell casting, and a good fort save from Ranger. You get defensive and offensive bonuses from scout, as well as extra skill points and good ways to use them, fast movement, and free movement.

You get some bonus feats from complimentary lists as well.

Eh, the issue is the overlaps:
D8 HD
Poor Will-saves
Good Reflex
High Skills
High BAB
Many of the same class features

Fact is that Swift Hunter is better than Scout/Ranger since it synergizes the primary class features, FE and Skirmish. Honestly though, does it sound like she'd want Skirmish? The shell I suggested is specifically designed to be an Archer that doesn't need a precision damage source while maintaining competitive archery capability. This is very important if you want to act beyond 30' reach, which with Archery is often likely.

Besides, triggering Skirmish without giving up your iteratives (which, let's face it, are responsible for the most of your damage) is a drag. Travel Devotion, 20' steps, some such, either way it's gonna take resources to acquire. In general, you don't want martial skill/martial skill builds in Gestalt as they add relatively little to each other; the system works best when combining classes with different strengths.

[Mongoose87]

Scout 3/Ranger 17//Psychic Warrior 20. Less overlap, more utility, a bit of Wis synergy.

[Coidzor]

Sorry, don't have any of the magazines.

Well, if Dragon is forbidden, I'm sorry to hear that. If not... check out Crystal Keep.

[Greenish]

Well, if Dragon is forbidden, I'm sorry to hear that. If not...

…You're still out of luck. Crystal Keep has removed the PDF detailing base classes and their variants.

[Fidelacchius]

Eh, the issue is the overlaps:
D8 HD
Poor Will-saves
Good Reflex
High Skills
High BAB
Many of the same class features

Fact is that Swift Hunter is better than Scout/Ranger since it synergizes the primary class features, FE and Skirmish. Honestly though, does it sound like she'd want Skirmish? The shell I suggested is specifically designed to be an Archer that doesn't need a precision damage source while maintaining competitive archery capability. This is very important if you want to act beyond 30' reach, which with Archery is often likely.

Besides, triggering Skirmish without giving up your iteratives (which, let's face it, are responsible for the most of your damage) is a drag. Travel Devotion, 20' steps, some such, either way it's gonna take resources to acquire. In general, you don't want martial skill/martial skill builds in Gestalt as they add relatively little to each other; the system works best when combining classes with different strengths.

So what can she take to replace MR?


BTW dragon isn't exactly banned, the DM has a few issues, just not the whole set and not that one.

Oh and, as I half suspected, class combining feats are only allowed if you take them on one side. In addition ,they only improve that sides class features. So a Ranger//Scout can't take it, but a Barbarian//Scout/Ranger could.

[PId6]

Scout 4/Ranger 16//Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Dread Necromancer 1/Beast Heart Adept 10/Order of the Bow Initiate 2/Ardent 1/Psychic Warrior 2

Take Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish, and the Shooting Star ranger ACF from Champions of Valor. For Barbarian dip, take the Whirling Frenzy variant from UA and one of the Spirit Totem ACFs from CC, and take Extra Rage. Cloistered Cleric grabs Knowledge Devotion (also take Education or Able Learner), Law or Animal Devotion, and Travel Devotion. Dread Necromancer gives you another pool of Rebuke Undead to fuel the Devotion feats with. You can take Extra Turning to give you even more Turning attempts (it adds to both pools). Beast Heart Adept provides a pretty good pet. Order of the Bow Initiate is just for Close Combat Shot. Ardent gets you two mantle abilities (Freedom and Time are good) while Psychic Warrior provides two feats. You can switch those levels to anything else you want.

[Coidzor]

Oh and, as I half suspected, class combining feats are only allowed if you take them on one side. In addition ,they only improve that sides class features. a Ranger//Scout

Wouldn't get anything from the feat due to having both classes advancing simultaneously and getting the stuff through the classes. Can't use the feat to get double the skirmish advancing.

That's... pretty much how I said you had to do it when I first pointed out.

[Fidelacchius]

Wouldn't get anything from the feat due to having both classes advancing simultaneously and getting the stuff through the classes. Can't use the feat to get double the skirmish advancing.

That's... pretty much how I said you had to do it when I first pointed out.

You expect me to pay attention?

Sorry, saw "ranger and scout levels stack", and I couldn't think after that due to maniacal grin.

[Draz74]

Restricting those feats to one side is silly, unnecessary bookwork. (Technically, the Gestalt rules don't even include such a concept of "sides.") Not allowing features from both sides at the same level is perfectly reasonable though; I don't think a Ranger 10//Scout 10 with Swift Hunter should end up with Level 20-features of Favored Enemy and Skirmish. But there's no reason not to let him end up with Level 10 features of each. In fact, that's frankly an underpowered option.

[Coidzor]

Restricting those feats to one side is silly, unnecessary bookwork. (Technically, the Gestalt rules don't even include such a concept of "sides.") Not allowing features from both sides at the same level is perfectly reasonable though; I don't think a Ranger 10//Scout 10 with Swift Hunter should end up with Level 20-features of Favored Enemy and Skirmish. But there's no reason not to let him end up with Level 10 features of each. In fact, that's frankly an underpowered option.

They... just can't anyway without a grossly wrong reading of the rules with Scout//Ranger, as they're getting the stuff normally that way already. Can't get a class feature twice from the same source without something that explicitly allows it. Now, I can see going for Scout 3/Ranger1/PrC 1//X 4/RangerorScout 1(alongside the PrC to advance swift hunter). Not seeing a whole lot on getting other features from the gestalt, but it would allow skirmish and the PrC stuff to finagle a bit better.

[Fidelacchius]

Restricting those feats to one side is silly, unnecessary bookwork.

But silly unnecessary bookwork is half the fun of this game!