Is the Warmage on par with PF core classes?

[Aeromyre]

I am the DM and one of my party members is a Warmage 4, I feel like his class is somewhat underpowered because the PF core classes are so pumped compared to any 3.5 class.
To make him a little more on par with the rest of them, I'd like to tweak the class and give it more abilities, and a super awesome one at level 20.
And I would note that no one in this party is an optimizer.

Warmage is a a regular class from Complete arcane, and not a Prestige class.

These were a few thoughts I came up with:

Spell Rage(Needs a working title): Warmage uses his discipline and training gained from his college to call forth more knowledge and power of magic. His eyes turn white and pupil-less his Charisma and Intelligence scores raise by 4, while his constitution and AC drop by 2. Also the warmage uses double his level when making concentration checks. (In PF there is no concentration skill it's based on Caster level) Warmage can use this ability 2 rounds per day + his charisma modifier + his level.

Weapon Unity(also needs a better title): At 5th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the Warmage chooses a particular weapon, and when wielding this weapon and casting spells, it adds a particular effect to spells cast if applicable. Also magical weapons apply their modifiers to hit and damage to spells as well as any special effects if applicable. For example a +2 Holy Longspear used in conjunction with a spell would give the warmage +2 to hit, +2 damage, and also if the opponent was evil 2d6 extra damage.

This isn't a complete list but just a stone to jump from.
Also I'm only doing simple weapons because as a spell caster he can't use anything better.
Spears: 10% extra damage
Daggers/Shortblades Adds bleeding Damage to Spells
Staff: Range of spells increase by 30%
Maces Do 2 Constitution Damage
Crossbows Add +2 to hit with spells

I need a couple more abilities i can use and please suggest what level they could be used at or around.
Thanks guys

[Gnaeus]

Warmage has no need for extra damage on attack spells. The warmage needs basic utility for something that isn't a damage spell.

Suggestion:
"The warmage is a variant type of sorcerer. As a variant sorcerer, the warmage picks a bloodline normally, and gains all normal benefits of that bloodline, including additional feats and spells known, as if he were a sorcerer of equal level."

All fixed.

[PId6]

Honestly, the easiest way to pump up the Warmage is to give it more (and better) spells. Its biggest problem has always been lack of versatility, and most of the spells it knows are just twenty different ways to blow stuff up. Add some decent utility and buff spells that an actual "Warmage" would be expected to know (Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic to fight enemy mages, Mage Armor and Shield to defend himself, Control Weather and Move Earth to set the battlefield, etc).

[Kaiyanwang]

You mean, play a sorcerer?

[PId6]

You mean, play a sorcerer?

Except not, because sorcerer is still better.

[Kaiyanwang]

Except not, because sorcerer is still better.

I see. Anyway, I second what said: the warmage needs no more damage.

OP: do you think the eclectic learning ACF in PHII? Why not work something around that?

[Aeromyre]

You mean, play a sorcerer?

Warmage can wear light armor with no Arcane Failure, then at 8th level it becomes medium armor

[Kaiyanwang]

Warmage can wear light armor with no Arcane Failure, then at 8th level it becomes medium armor

Yes, I see, I was only making a joke around not making the two classes too similar in the attept of fixing one of the two (a criticism that can be done even to my suggestion above ).

[Aeromyre]

Yeah i suppose that it makes it easier and probably more realistic to let them choose bloodline and add some more spells that are not combat based.

[PId6]

I made a Warmage homebrew a while ago, with a greatly expanded spell list that should be much better than before. Here is its spell list if it helps:

Spoiler

Show

Spells:

0:

Acid Splash
Caltrops (SpC)
Dancing Lights
Detect Magic
Electric Jolt (SpC)
Launch Bolt (SpC)
Light
Message
Ray of Frost
Sonic Snap (SpC)

1:

Benign Transposition (SpC)
Burning Hands
Fist of Stone (SpC)
Magic Missile
Mount
Orb of Acid, Lesser
Orb of Cold, Lesser
Orb of Electricity, Lesser
Orb of Fire, Lesser
Orb of Sound, Lesser
Shield
Shocking Grasp
True Casting (CM)
True Strike

2:

Arcane Turmoil (CM)
Battering Ram (SpC)
Bladeweave (SpC)
Combust (SpC)
Fireburst (SpC)
Fog Cloud
Gust of Wind
Heroics (SpC)
Scorching Ray
Seeking Ray (PHB2)
Whirling Blade (SpC)
Wind Wall

3:

Dispel Magic
Great Thunderclap (SpC)
Fire Shield
Fireball
Knight's Move (SpC)
Legion of Sentinels (PHB2)
Lightning Bolt
Poison
Regal Procession (SpC)
Sound Lance (SpC)
Vampiric Touch

4:

Assay Spell Resistance (SpC)
Displacer Form (SpC)
Evard's Black Tentacles
Hallucinatory Terrain
Orb of Acid
Orb of Cold
Orb of Electricity
Orb of Fire
Orb of Force
Orb of Sound
Solid Fog
Thunderlance (SpC)
Wall of Fire
Wall of Ice

5:

Arcane Fusion (CM)
Cloudkill
Cone of Cold
Fireburst, Greater (SpC)
Lightning Leap (CM)
Mirage Arcana
Transmute Mud to Rock
Transmute Rock to Mud
Wall of Force

6:

Acid Fog
Blade Barrier
Chain Lightning
Disintegrate
Dispel Magic, Greater
Freezing Fog (SpC)
Howling Chain (SpC)
Move Earth
Tactical Teleportation (CM)

7:

Bigby's Grasping Hand
Body of War (SpC)
Control Weather
Delayed Blast Fireball
Earthquake
Finger of Death
Mordenkainen's Sword
Polar Ray
Prismatic Spray
Sunbeam

8:

Arcane Fusion, Greater (CM)
Chain Dispel (PHB2)
Field of Icy Razors (SpC)
Giant Size (CA)
Horrid Wilting
Incendiary Cloud
Lash of Force (CM)
Sunburst
Unyielding Form of Inevitable Death (CM)
Whirlwind

9:

Detonate (PHB2)
Dragonshape (PHB2)
Elemental Swarm
Implosion
Maw of Chaos (SpC)
Meteor Swarm
Reaving Dispel (CA)
Storm of Vengeance
Transmute Rock to Lava (SpC)

It's meant to be pretty high powered. I also added a few class features that help the Warmage gish, and made Warmage's Edge a linearly progressing class feature (like Bard's Inspire Courage) rather than based on Int (relieves MAD). Warmage's Edge now adds damage per dice that the spell deals, rather than just flat damage (so 10d6 Fireball with +3 Warmage's Edge now deals 10d6+30).

[Hague]

If you want a warmage that can use different spells just play a Sorcerer. The Warmage's spell list is intentionally narrow. If you wanted to make them better just unify their main stat vs. their Warmage edge: Either the edge uses charisma or the spellcasting is based on intelligence.

[PId6]

If you want a warmage that can use different spells just play a Sorcerer. The Warmage's spell list is intentionally narrow. If you wanted to make them better just unify their main stat vs. their Warmage edge: Either the edge uses charisma or the spellcasting is based on intelligence.

There's a difference between being focused, and being so narrow that you can't do your job properly. Why does a mage focused on war not know how to cast the simplest buff spells to protect themselves? And not have any means to defend against enemy casters? A good example of a specialist caster is Beguiler, whose spell list has plenty of illusions and enchantments, but still has enough other things (including Mage Armor, Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic, Solid Fog, Legion of Sentinels, etc) that it isn't completely screwed when its one trick doesn't work.

[Aeromyre]

I made a Warmage homebrew a while ago, with a greatly expanded spell list that should be much better than before. Here is its spell list if it helps:

Spoiler

Show

Spells:

0:

Acid Splash
Caltrops (SpC)
Dancing Lights
Detect Magic
Electric Jolt (SpC)
Launch Bolt (SpC)
Light
Message
Ray of Frost
Sonic Snap (SpC)

1:

Benign Transposition (SpC)
Burning Hands
Fist of Stone (SpC)
Magic Missile
Mount
Orb of Acid, Lesser
Orb of Cold, Lesser
Orb of Electricity, Lesser
Orb of Fire, Lesser
Orb of Sound, Lesser
Shield
Shocking Grasp
True Casting (CM)
True Strike

2:

Arcane Turmoil (CM)
Battering Ram (SpC)
Bladeweave (SpC)
Combust (SpC)
Fireburst (SpC)
Fog Cloud
Gust of Wind
Heroics (SpC)
Scorching Ray
Seeking Ray (PHB2)
Whirling Blade (SpC)
Wind Wall

3:

Dispel Magic
Great Thunderclap (SpC)
Fire Shield
Fireball
Knight's Move (SpC)
Legion of Sentinels (PHB2)
Lightning Bolt
Poison
Regal Procession (SpC)
Sound Lance (SpC)
Vampiric Touch

4:

Assay Spell Resistance (SpC)
Displacer Form (SpC)
Evard's Black Tentacles
Hallucinatory Terrain
Orb of Acid
Orb of Cold
Orb of Electricity
Orb of Fire
Orb of Force
Orb of Sound
Solid Fog
Thunderlance (SpC)
Wall of Fire
Wall of Ice

5:

Arcane Fusion (CM)
Cloudkill
Cone of Cold
Fireburst, Greater (SpC)
Lightning Leap (CM)
Mirage Arcana
Transmute Mud to Rock
Transmute Rock to Mud
Wall of Force

6:

Acid Fog
Blade Barrier
Chain Lightning
Disintegrate
Dispel Magic, Greater
Freezing Fog (SpC)
Howling Chain (SpC)
Move Earth
Tactical Teleportation (CM)

7:

Bigby's Grasping Hand
Body of War (SpC)
Control Weather
Delayed Blast Fireball
Earthquake
Finger of Death
Mordenkainen's Sword
Polar Ray
Prismatic Spray
Sunbeam

8:

Arcane Fusion, Greater (CM)
Chain Dispel (PHB2)
Field of Icy Razors (SpC)
Giant Size (CA)
Horrid Wilting
Incendiary Cloud
Lash of Force (CM)
Sunburst
Unyielding Form of Inevitable Death (CM)
Whirlwind

9:

Detonate (PHB2)
Dragonshape (PHB2)
Elemental Swarm
Implosion
Maw of Chaos (SpC)
Meteor Swarm
Reaving Dispel (CA)
Storm of Vengeance
Transmute Rock to Lava (SpC)

It's meant to be pretty high powered. I also added a few class features that help the Warmage gish, and made Warmage's Edge a linearly progressing class feature (like Bard's Inspire Courage) rather than based on Int (relieves MAD). Warmage's Edge now adds damage per dice that the spell deals, rather than just flat damage (so 10d6 Fireball with +3 Warmage's Edge now deals 10d6+30).

You're the man! Thanks :D

[Gnaeus]

To put it another way, no well built character should commonly find themselves in situations with nothing at all useful that they can do. The Warmage, unlike the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer, is so focused that they are useless if blasting an enemy with damage spells isn't needed.

[Bharg]

We once had a warmage in our group and it was terrible, because our DM didn't counter it appropriately, though the general CR of our enemies was too low. We like killed one of the end bosses in like two rounds. After the first was blinded, nauseated and too idiotic to cast any spells...

[Brendan]

My group worked on something similar to your spell rage thing and called it mage rage. Maybe add on a metamagic reducer for the duration and a +1 to the cost of matamagic for two rounds after. It shouldn't just be a +2 to damage and a +2 to save dc.

[Aeromyre]

This is what I will do,
Using my Idea of Spell Rage (Calling it "Arcane Trance")
Making Warmage Edge Apply to dice instead of it being flat damage.
Making Advanced learning more frequent and open to any non-combat spell rather than evocation spells only.
And possibly adding more spells to his list

[Dusk Eclipse]

I made a Warmage homebrew a while ago, with a greatly expanded spell list that should be much better than before. Here is its spell list if it helps:

Spoiler

Show

Spells:

0:

Acid Splash
Caltrops (SpC)
Dancing Lights
Detect Magic
Electric Jolt (SpC)
Launch Bolt (SpC)
Light
Message
Ray of Frost
Sonic Snap (SpC)

1:

Benign Transposition (SpC)
Burning Hands
Fist of Stone (SpC)
Magic Missile
Mount
Orb of Acid, Lesser
Orb of Cold, Lesser
Orb of Electricity, Lesser
Orb of Fire, Lesser
Orb of Sound, Lesser
Shield
Shocking Grasp
True Casting (CM)
True Strike

2:

Arcane Turmoil (CM)
Battering Ram (SpC)
Bladeweave (SpC)
Combust (SpC)
Fireburst (SpC)
Fog Cloud
Gust of Wind
Heroics (SpC)
Scorching Ray
Seeking Ray (PHB2)
Whirling Blade (SpC)
Wind Wall

3:

Dispel Magic
Great Thunderclap (SpC)
Fire Shield
Fireball
Knight's Move (SpC)
Legion of Sentinels (PHB2)
Lightning Bolt
Poison
Regal Procession (SpC)
Sound Lance (SpC)
Vampiric Touch

4:

Assay Spell Resistance (SpC)
Displacer Form (SpC)
Evard's Black Tentacles
Hallucinatory Terrain
Orb of Acid
Orb of Cold
Orb of Electricity
Orb of Fire
Orb of Force
Orb of Sound
Solid Fog
Thunderlance (SpC)
Wall of Fire
Wall of Ice

5:

Arcane Fusion (CM)
Cloudkill
Cone of Cold
Fireburst, Greater (SpC)
Lightning Leap (CM)
Mirage Arcana
Transmute Mud to Rock
Transmute Rock to Mud
Wall of Force

6:

Acid Fog
Blade Barrier
Chain Lightning
Disintegrate
Dispel Magic, Greater
Freezing Fog (SpC)
Howling Chain (SpC)
Move Earth
Tactical Teleportation (CM)

7:

Bigby's Grasping Hand
Body of War (SpC)
Control Weather
Delayed Blast Fireball
Earthquake
Finger of Death
Mordenkainen's Sword
Polar Ray
Prismatic Spray
Sunbeam

8:

Arcane Fusion, Greater (CM)
Chain Dispel (PHB2)
Field of Icy Razors (SpC)
Giant Size (CA)
Horrid Wilting
Incendiary Cloud
Lash of Force (CM)
Sunburst
Unyielding Form of Inevitable Death (CM)
Whirlwind

9:

Detonate (PHB2)
Dragonshape (PHB2)
Elemental Swarm
Implosion
Maw of Chaos (SpC)
Meteor Swarm
Reaving Dispel (CA)
Storm of Vengeance
Transmute Rock to Lava (SpC)

It's meant to be pretty high powered. I also added a few class features that help the Warmage gish, and made Warmage's Edge a linearly progressing class feature (like Bard's Inspire Courage) rather than based on Int (relieves MAD). Warmage's Edge now adds damage per dice that the spell deals, rather than just flat damage (so 10d6 Fireball with +3 Warmage's Edge now deals 10d6+30).

Do you have a link for that revision?

Also, would just adding your revised spell list to a warmage be too powerful?

[Starbuck_II]

You could just grant Wild Surge (from Wilder) but rename Arcane Surge.
Limit it to 3 + Cha bonus/day uses (remove the enervate issue as we limit useage).

Like this:
Arcane Surge (Su)
A Warmage can let her passion and emotion rise to the surface in a arcane surge when she casts a spell. During a arcane surge, a warmage gains phenomenal arcane strength, but is limited in uses of it each day.

A warmage can choose to invoke a arcane surge whenever she casts a spell. When she does so, she gains +1 to her caster level with that casting of the spell. Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the spell a warmage casts with her arcane surge.

This improvement in caster level does not grant her any other benefits.

At 3rd level, a warmage can choose to boost her caster level by two instead of one. At 7th level, she can boost her caster level by up to three; at 11th level, by up to four; at 15th level, by up to five; and at 19th level, by up to six.

This ability is limited to 3 + Cha/day uses of Arcane Surge.

Then at level 3 you can grant:
Arcane Talent:
When using Arcane Surge, a Warmage gains a bonus to Warmage Edge equal to Arcane Surge amount for Cha bonus rounds (minimum 1 rd).

[PId6]

Do you have a link for that revision?

Also, would just adding your revised spell list to a warmage be too powerful?

Nope, haven't posted it anywhere yet. I'll make a thread in Homebrew later. I was planning on posting it one of these days; just never had the time.

Also, would just adding your revised spell list to a warmage be too powerful?

Depends on how you define "too powerful." I designed the class to be a strong Tier 3 or 2. The class features would definitely reserve it for optimized games only, but the spell list alone shouldn't increase its power too dramatically. Its versatility would go up a lot though, which is kinda the point.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Nope, haven't posted it anywhere yet. I'll make a thread in Homebrew later. I was planning on posting it one of these days; just never had the time.


Depends on how you define "too powerful." I designed the class to be a strong Tier 3 or 2. The class features would definitely reserve it for optimized games only, but the spell list alone shouldn't increase its power too dramatically. Its versatility would go up a lot though, which is kinda the point.

High Tier 3, Tier 2 would be the best.. for my group

[Aeromyre]

You could just grant Wild Surge (from Wilder) but rename Arcane Surge.
Limit it to 3 + Cha bonus/day uses (remove the enervate issue as we limit useage).

Like this:
Arcane Surge (Su)
A Warmage can let her passion and emotion rise to the surface in a arcane surge when she casts a spell. During a arcane surge, a warmage gains phenomenal arcane strength, but is limited in uses of it each day.

A warmage can choose to invoke a arcane surge whenever she casts a spell. When she does so, she gains +1 to her caster level with that casting of the spell. Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the spell a warmage casts with her arcane surge.

This improvement in caster level does not grant her any other benefits.

At 3rd level, a warmage can choose to boost her caster level by two instead of one. At 7th level, she can boost her caster level by up to three; at 11th level, by up to four; at 15th level, by up to five; and at 19th level, by up to six.

This ability is limited to 3 + Cha/day uses of Arcane Surge.

Then at level 3 you can grant:
Arcane Talent:
When using Arcane Surge, a Warmage gains a bonus to Warmage Edge equal to Arcane Surge amount for Cha bonus rounds (minimum 1 rd).

That's ok but it just adds 1 to all the spell DC saves to resist
i like what i had better personally based off barbaian's rage with slightly more than have the number of rounds per day it can be used
2 + cha + warmage level vis 4 + con + 2/barbarian level

[gbprime]

I think you're over-engineering it. Warmage doesn't need more damage. Warmage is a cannon, and a good one. Give them Empower Spell, or metamagic like anyone else (Wounding Spell is nice too), and that's as over-the-top as they need to go.

What you need to do is add spells, as previously mentioned. Arcane Disciple, prestige class that adds domains or substitutions (Dracolexi and Wild Soul come to mind)...

[DragoonWraith]

Actually, one of the things that really infuriates me about Warmages is that they're not especially good cannons. You might also consider giving them more and better blasting spells, or at least getting some spells earlier than the Wizard does... in addition to some basic utility spells.

[Starbuck_II]

That's ok but it just adds 1 to all the spell DC saves to resist
i like what i had better personally based off barbaian's rage with slightly more than have the number of rounds per day it can be used
2 + cha + warmage level vis 4 + con + 2/barbarian level

What adds to Save DC?

My suggestion adds to caster level and Edge.

[PId6]

High Tier 3, Tier 2 would be the best.. for my group

Okay, I've posted it. See sig for link. If anyone has any comments/feedback, I'd be glad to hear it.

[Aeromyre]

Okay, I've posted it. See sig for link. If anyone has any comments/feedback, I'd be glad to hear it.

Thanks man :D