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  1. - Top - End - #1291
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    But if we accept that, this entire thread is pointless. If we accept a little hand-waving, where does it end? By that argument, I could say the MitD is a gold dragon because....um...well because it's big and strong and eventually gets sorcerer spellcasting (even though that won't come in when it's small enough to fit under the umbrella) and Rich can hand-wave everything else. The premise of this thread is that the MitD is guessable based on the evidence given. Otherwise there's no way to say that one proposal is better than another, and it devolves into all of us sitting here going "my guess is best because I think it is". While the fluff for the goristro is promising, we cannot simply dismiss the evidence that it is not the MitD.
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  2. - Top - End - #1292
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    For that matter, none of the powerful proposed creatures would. Paper cut moment is clearly Rule of Funny trumping Rules.
    It has been suggested that the paper cut could be a clue to the MiTD having exterior armour that doesn't protect his tongue, maybe represented in d20 rules by high natural armour.

    I don't think we can safely reject the incident as merely rule-of-funny.
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  3. - Top - End - #1293
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Mawhrin Skel View Post
    It has been suggested that the paper cut could be a clue to the MiTD having exterior armour that doesn't protect his tongue, maybe represented in d20 rules by high natural armour.

    I don't think we can safely reject the incident as merely rule-of-funny.
    It's a punchline. That is funny. The stretch is to think it's a clue, rather than Rule of Funny. But let's assume that it is indeed a clue: are there any rules that address the situation? I suspect that "creatures whose insides are weaker than their outsides" are only those so huge they can devour a character, who then can proceed to hack their way out of. For anything the size of MitD, there are no rules, and so it would be of very little help.

    Then there is the alternative explanation that MitD has good defences but he is strong enough to overcome them. Thus, to take the example of an amorph, while a sword in the hands of Miko can't do anything other than slightly inconvenience him, a piece of paper moved with schlock-like force can cut through his own body, actually causing some pain.

    I.e. what is already described in section 2b - Defences.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  4. - Top - End - #1294
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    I was thinking about the tower scene again.

    Perhaps the MitD could have the Rock Hurling and Fling Enemy feats, and maybe Brutal Throw and Power Throw too. (These would necessitate the MitD to be Large+ or Medium with Powerful Build.) We could then treat the holes in the wall as results of the MitD having attacked them with Miko and Windstriker.

    Stone has hardness 8 and 15 hp/inch of thickness. Typical masonry wall is apparently 1 ft thick. To break such a wall the MitD would need to do 178 points of damage with a single attack. Most of that would have to be strength bonus, although since Miko and Windstriker might count as two-handed weapons the bonus would be counted one and a half times if that's allowed.

    So let's say that Miko is a Large greatclub. She does 2d6 damage per hit on her own, averaging 7 points. This leaves 171 points for the MitD's strength. It looks like we're going to need to use Power Throw (despite the MitD's words to the contrary), assume a thinner wall, or assign truly gigantic strength to the MitD.

    A basic Tarrasque (to use some creature of plausible strength) has +57 attack bonus, of which +48 is counted as BAB, since that's its number of hit dice and it's a Magical Beast. If the MitD put all that into Power Throw, that leaves only 123 points for the MitD's strength bonus to account for. That's still tad excessive.

    So let's say the stone wall is only half of the default thickness, so that the MitD needs to do 98 points of damage to break it, 91 after Miko. After Power Throw, that leaves 50 points. That's still quite high, but approaching the limits of plausibility.

    Going down to a mere 4-inch wall, it has 68 points damage needed, 61 after Miko, and a piddly 13 after Power Throw. The MitD could break that with 36 strength without even needing to count his bonus one and a half times. The Tarrasque has 45 strength. This feat is totally doable for a strong monster with the right feats.

    With Fling Enemy, the MitD would have a range increment of 20 and be able to throw Miko and Windstriker 100 feet away at the maximum. That sounds about right based on how quickly the MitD arrived there.

    Not explored in this post: The possibility that the MitD has some version of the infamous Hulking Hurler build.

  5. - Top - End - #1295
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdanel View Post
    With Fling Enemy, the MitD would have a range increment of 20 and be able to throw Miko and Windstriker 100 feet away at the maximum. That sounds about right based on how quickly the MitD arrived there.
    when figuring out distance, don't forget that they were above ground level in the tower, and therefore would fly farther before hitting the ground. Not sure whether you did or not, just putting it out there.
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    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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  6. - Top - End - #1296
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by master256 View Post
    when figuring out distance, don't forget that they were above ground level in the tower, and therefore would fly farther before hitting the ground. Not sure whether you did or not, just putting it out there.
    I didn't forget it, but the rules don't allow for that special case. Also, Miko and Windstriker fell straight down.

    (I won't go into physics right now, but the D&D approximation here isn't as unrealistic as one might think.)

  7. - Top - End - #1297
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdanel View Post
    I disagree. In panel 9, Miko is seen off in the distance. In panel 10, with the mountains still the same as in the previous panel, she is close to the camera. Then, in panel 13, we see those mountains taller and bigger through the break in the wall. Within the limitations of the comic's style, I think there is a good case to be made that they were flung much, much farther than straight down.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  8. - Top - End - #1298
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Guys, I think this tearing through walls thing might just be Rule of Funny.
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  9. - Top - End - #1299
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I disagree. In panel 9, Miko is seen off in the distance. In panel 10, with the mountains still the same as in the previous panel, she is close to the camera. Then, in panel 13, we see those mountains taller and bigger through the break in the wall. Within the limitations of the comic's style, I think there is a good case to be made that they were flung much, much farther than straight down.

    Grey Wolf
    I meant it like this:
    1. The MitD throws Miko, effectively attacking the wall.
    2. The section of the wall is destroyed by the MitD's attack, allowing Miko to fly in a high arch 100 feet away.
    3. However, since Miko was sent flying from the top floor of a tower and that tower was quite likely situated on a high place with a good view of the surrounding area, the place 100 feet away horizontally turns out to be high in the air.
    4. The throw done, Miko is now affected by the default rules.
    5. Since Miko is in the air without the power of flight, the default rules say that she should fall straight down, which she does.

  10. - Top - End - #1300
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Timeless Error View Post
    Guys, I think this tearing through walls thing might just be Rule of Funny.
    It likely is, but Nerdanel has, since the beginning of the thread, been trying to find the actual rules that would explain everything MitD. It's a thread tradition now, and it has been very useful in the past.

    Case in point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdanel View Post
    I meant it like this:
    <snip>5. Since Miko is in the air without the power of flight, the default rules say that she should fall straight down, which she does.
    Gotcha. Makes sense now.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2011-01-30 at 05:45 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  11. - Top - End - #1301
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Physics doesn't work that waaaay. (cries)
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Physics doesn't work that waaaay. (cries)
    Er... actually, they kinda do. You can calculate a parabolic trajectory as two independent vectors, the vertical and the horizontal one. The initial speed minus the negative acceleration of air resistance is enough to carry it 100 feet forward, during which gravity pulls it down to the ground. Sure, in game terms it looks like it went straight out and then straight down, but then, so does the physics problem. It's a rough, but simple, approach to the situation, and a fairly nice solution, too. Sure t is a factor of the horizontal distance, rather than the vertical as it should be (thus a longer fall would produce a slightly longer distance), but the game rules would be too complex otherwise, not to mention that for a long enough fall, horizontal speed quickly becomes 0 anyway.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2011-01-30 at 06:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  13. - Top - End - #1303
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Well, air resistance has a very minor effect on the horizontal speed, so it will likely not reach zero.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
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  14. - Top - End - #1304
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Yes, I did notice the slight distinction, and the slightly different arguments thereof, but they are close enough that hopefully you'll excuse me for not putting in your idea as a different one, since the joke section is for levity rather than a fundamental part of the first post (thus also why it was the first to be moved when I hit the hard limit on the number of characters allowed per post).

    GW
    Certainly; you put so much work into this thing that you need no excuse for filing the idea as you prefer.

    I think it would be entirely appropriate for the solution to the MitD riddle to be humorous in nature. Especially since more conventional solutions have been thoroughly explored with no clear winner.

  15. - Top - End - #1305
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by rewinn View Post
    I think it would be entirely appropriate for the solution to the MitD riddle to be humorous in nature. Especially since more conventional solutions have been thoroughly explored with no clear winner.
    Unlikely, I believe. Far more likely is that future evidence will open up new avenues of thought (clear evidence of mixed lineage giving us reason to use templates, for example). Rich has invested a little too much energy in both MitD himself and in promoting the "guessing game" for him to pull the rug under our feet at the very end and say "it's the Gazebo monster".

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Unlikely, I believe. Far more likely is that future evidence will open up new avenues of thought (clear evidence of mixed lineage giving us reason to use templates, for example). Rich has invested a little too much energy in both MitD himself and in promoting the "guessing game" for him to pull the rug under our feet at the very end and say "it's the Gazebo monster".

    Grey Wolf
    But Sabine is not a joke monster; she establishes that in this world, some concepts are incarnated. The way this affects her actions and motivations results in much of her on-screen humor.

    Granted, not much has been done with this concept otherwise. Most of the exemplars of concepts have been merely mortals very good at their role, e.g. Dashing Swordsman!, but not capable of the sort of unreasonably great power used with unreasonable casualness that betokens MitD having some sort of supernatural connection.
    Last edited by rewinn; 2011-01-30 at 06:42 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #1307
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by rewinn View Post
    But Sabine is not a joke monster; she establishes that in this world, some concepts are incarnated. The way this affects her actions and motivations results in much of her on-screen humor.

    Granted, not much has been done with this concept otherwise. Most of the exemplars of concepts have been merely mortals very good at their role, e.g. Dashing Swordsman!, but not capable of the sort of unreasonably great power used with unreasonable casualness that betokens MitD having some sort of supernatural connection.
    Sorry, but you've lost me there. Sabine is a succubus, behaving pretty much like a regular CE succubus would. What do you mean by "incarnated concept" and how does this relate to MitD?

    Thanks,

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  18. - Top - End - #1308
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    I believe he refers to how Sabine says "[she's] literally an evil incarnation of illicit sex."
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    I believe he refers to how Sabine says "[she's] literally an evil incarnation of illicit sex."
    That's what a succubus is. The truth of that statement is entirely within the Monster Manual I. Rich did not make up Succubi to prove a point.
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    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    For the next thread:

    The MITD IV: Post your stupid half a suggestion
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Updates on the wall-attack stuff:

    - The feat Epic Sunder allows for the strength bonus to count twice..
    - The Paragon template adds +15 to Str and +10 to damage.
    - The Pseudonatural template adds +22 to Str
    - Complete Warrior has a chart that would allow a thrown Miko to do considerable damage, but I don't have access to it.

    Doing the math again for the default stone wall, assuming Paragon and Epic Sunder but not taking account the CW chart:

    Total damage needed: 178
    Damage after Miko: 171
    Damage after Paragon's extra damage: 151
    Str bonus needed: +76
    Str bonus needed after Paragon: +69
    Str bonus needed after Pseudonatural: +58 (still a ton!)

    So either the wall was thinner that that, the MitD used the CW throw chart, or the MitD has a completely unreasonable amount of strength-raising stuff like templates and levels in War Hulk.

    I'm leaning towards the CW throw chart.
    Last edited by Nerdanel; 2011-01-31 at 08:26 AM. Reason: Fixed the math

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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdanel View Post
    Updates on the wall-attack stuff:

    - The feat Epic Sunder allows for the strength bonus to count twice..
    - The Paragon template adds +15 to Str and +10 to damage.
    - The Pseudonatural template adds +22 to Str
    - Complete Warrior has a chart that would allow a thrown Miko to do considerable damage, but I don't have access to it.

    Doing the math again for the default stone wall, assuming Paragon and Epic Sunder but not taking account the CW chart:

    Total damage needed: 178
    Damage after Miko: 171
    Damage after Paragon's extra damage: 151
    Str bonus needed: +76
    Str bonus needed after Paragon: +69
    Str bonus needed after Pseudonatural: +58 (still a ton!)

    So either the wall was thinner that that, the MitD used the CW throw chart, or the MitD has a completely unreasonable amount of strength-raising stuff like templates and levels in War Hulk.

    I'm leaning towards the CW throw chart.
    I found a chart in CW on page 159, it is labeled "Improvised Weapon Damage".
    The damage by weight (in pounds) is as follows:
    <2 = 1d3
    2-5 = 1d4
    6-10 = 1d6
    11-25 = 1d8
    26-50 = 2d6
    51-100 = 3d6
    101 - 200 = 4d6
    201 - 400 = 5d6

    Miko would do more as an improvised weapon by this chart than as a Large Greatclub, but I'm not sure if it's enough of an increase to make a significant difference.
    It also says that for every 200 pounds an object weighs above 400, add a d6.
    Assuming Windstriker is 900-1000 pounds, he would do 8d6. 1000-1200 pounds would be 9d6. Above that does not make any sense for a horse.
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2011-01-31 at 10:59 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Holy smokes --that's a colossal strength bonus! Do we have any creatures on our list with a strength bonus that high?

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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    So it's starting to sound like the wall was probably thinner than the default.

    Let's do the math for six inches of stone wall and say that Miko does 4d6 points of damage or 14 on the average:

    Points needed: 98
    After Miko: 84
    After Power Throw: 39
    After Epic Sunder: 20

    Str bonus of +20 corresponds to a Str score of 50. That's completely doable! Your basic Tarrasque could break that wall if it had the right feats and Miko rolled well for damage. There are epic monsters even stronger than it, too.

    List of epic monsters with at least 45 Str:
    Hecatoncheires: 50
    Phaethon: 58
    Xixecal: 66
    Stone Colossus: 70
    Iron Colossus: 80
    Force Dragons from Young Adult and up
    Prismatic Dragons from Mature Adult and up
    Genius Loci: 50
    Hagumemnon (Protean): 53
    Hunefer: 47
    Lavawight: 52
    Living Vault: 80
    Three-Headed Sirrush: 47
    Titan, Elder: 45
    Treant, Eldr: 48
    Winterwight: 52

    Yeah, a half-thickness wall is totally doable. Also, I notice that the Protean from the forerunners list is strong enough to break the six-inch wall with Miko more than half the time.

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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    I really appreciate the strength requirement breakdown but if we are going for plausible/realistic it should be noted that it was not unusual that towers like the one in question here had walls with a thickness in excess of 3ft.

    Now, a 3ft. thick hewn stone wall has hardness 8, a whopping 540 hit points, and break DC 50.

    I wonder if it would be fair to use the break DC as the target number rather than the walls hit points... When a character tries to break something with sudden force rather than by dealing damage they use a Strength check against the Break DC. That means that the MitD when all is said and done for the purpose of knocking Miko and her horse through the wall needs a strength bonus in excess of +30. Nerdanel has demonstrated that this is very possible and (as far as I can see) her list does not take into account feats and abilities that multiply strength bonuses for the purpose of breaking things.

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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    I did take into account Epic Sunder which doubles the strength bonus. I also took full advantage of Power Throw.

    Focused Sunder and Combat Engineer also could help, but do not provide a multiplicative bonus. For attacking a stone wall, the benefits of Combat Engineer make also having Focused Sunder redundant. With Focused Sunder the MitD would get a benefit of mere 4 points. With Combat Engineer, the MitD would get 10 extra points to his damage, but he would need to have 4 ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering) to qualify for that feat.

    The problem with breaking the wall with sudden force is that I'm aware of very few things than can make meeting the DC easier.

    I'm aware of Ruinous Rage, but to take that the MitD would need to have rage 5/day, meaning 16 levels of Barbarian or 1 level of Barbarian and 4 Extra Rage feats or something in between. Looking at the text of Ruinous Rage, I notice it's ambiguous about whether the break DC effect is in force outside of a rage. It's probably meant to require a rage, but the text could be rules-lawyered either way.

    For breaking a DC 50 wall without anything extra, the minimum Str score needed is 70. The Str score needed to succeed every time is 108. The only Epic Level Handbook monsters that could do that as-is are a few Constructs which the MitD can't be.

    So let's add Ruinous Rage to the picture. With it, the minimum Str score becomes 40 and the always-succeed one becomes 60. That's far more reasonable. A Protean would succeed on a roll of 8 or more (or 2 with Greater Rage on) if it managed to qualify for feat somehow.
    Last edited by Nerdanel; 2011-02-01 at 05:33 AM. Reason: Fixed the math

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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    You mean, MitD could be Rich's original creation? Then what's the point of thread?
    No, it's just that he never says that it's a monster in D&D. It could be anythign from any other source. Grue for example.


    Anyway....

    My theory is that it's a Kender! 90% of people would vomit if that wound up being the case, and the last 10% would comment on how cute it was.
    /joke

    Anyway, another thought I had while reading a few pages is that of knowledge skills. The only three people who definately know what the creature is would be Redcloak and the two explorers. Seeing as how knowledge skills are normally used in the identification of monsters, so looking at what's available could be an interesting thought experiment.

    Clerics have the following available to them:
    Knowledge (arcana)
    Knowledge (history)
    Knowledge (religion)
    Knowledge (the planes)
    While experts(which the explorers could have been) have any 10 knowledges available to them.

    Mainly just thinking 'out loud' here, so feel free to ignore.
    Last edited by Typewriter; 2011-02-03 at 11:14 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #1318
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    Quote Originally Posted by Typewriter View Post
    No, it's just that he never says that it's a monster in D&D. It could be anythign from any other source. Grue for example.
    You are aware you are answering a post from 8 pages ago, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Typewriter View Post
    Anyway, another thought I had while reading a few pages is that of knowledge skills. The only three people who definately know what the creature is would be Redcloak and the two explorers. Seeing as how knowledge skills are normally used in the identification of monsters, so looking at what's available could be an interesting thought experiment.

    Clerics have the following available to them:
    Knowledge (arcana)
    Knowledge (history)
    Knowledge (religion)
    Knowledge (the planes)
    While experts(which the explorers could have been) have any 10 knowledges available to them.

    Mainly just thinking 'out loud' here, so feel free to ignore.
    It has been brought up before. Unfortunately, the one cleric that has identified MitD also happens to carry a super-powerful magical item (the red cloak) which may add massive bonuses to knowledge skills, and the person wearing said item is a massive nerd who has demonstrated knowledge (chemistry), which you will not find in any list. He could easily have knowledge (all the others) from his inherent nerdity.

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    Where reality is an intruder
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  29. - Top - End - #1319
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    Lightbulb Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    There are several good idea's in here, but telling which is right may be impossible. Here are the reasons why:
    1. Rich is not the kind of guy yo systematically eliminate every plot hole for every punch line. If he tried, we would get a new strip every 6 months.

    2. We already know that Rich doesn't follow the D&D rules to the letter. This means that rule-based theory's, while useful, may be inconclusive.

    3. Rich said "it's possible to guess.", not that it's possible to confirm one answer as being right and ruling out all other possibilities.

    4. We have collectively searched heaven and hell through every sourcebook. If there was a monster that was a perfect fit for the MitD, we would have found it.

    I'm not saying to give up the search, I could be wrong. But I don't think we can conclusively prove just what MitD is.

  30. - Top - End - #1320
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    Default Re: MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

    But, as Gray Wolf will say when he arrives, if we assume this, this thread is pointless. Therefore, we assume that a rules based analysis WILL have relevance so we can search.
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