(DnD, 3.5) Knockdown (feat) Questions

[AtwasAwamps]

So, I’ve seen a couple threads recently that mention the knockdown feat and I have to ask a quick question about it, as a player in my game is looking to take it.

The only errata I can find about knockdown re: improved trip is from 3rd Edition, which says that Knockdown does NOT trigger improved trip. One of my players insists he found errata/faq that says Knockdown DOES trigger improved trip. I have a feeling he is lying horribly and this would not be the first time he’s tried it, but I just want to check.

Second, would you consider it at all overpowered for me to allow it to work with improved trip, considering the player in question is probably going to be using a straight drow fighter? I don’t think it would be and I’m in favor of melee having nice things, so I’m going to let her have it either way, just curious.

[unre9istered]

That feat was never updated into 3.5, so it remains in its 3.0 form, meaning: no, it does not allow a free attack. If the player argues that he saw some errata make him show you. He can't do so because it doesn't exist.

As far as the power level is concerned, tripping is about the most powerful thing melee can do already. I don't know that it needs to be stronger. Unless you have optimized casters in your party I'd say don't allow it.

[AtwasAwamps]

That feat was never updated into 3.5, so it remains in its 3.0 form, meaning: no, it does not allow a free attack. If the player argues that he saw some errata make him show you. He can't do so because it doesn't exist.

As far as the power level is concerned, tripping is about the most powerful thing melee can do already. I don't know that it needs to be stronger. Unless you have optimized casters in your party I'd say don't allow it.

Dread Necro optimizing for his army, DMM CLeric, Optimized blaster Psion. And the rest of the party is...well...the rest of the party. Don't mind them.

[unre9istered]

Given that, demand to see the Errata and when he can't find it let him have it anyway. Make him sweat a little for trying to pull a fast one on you. Or if your vindictive tell him 'no' for the same reason.

[Volos]

Explain to your player that you need more then just his word in order to concider allowing him to take a feat and use it the way he thinks it works. Not to mention the problems that can arrise from using 3.0 rules mixed into 3.5.

[Person_Man]

So, I’ve seen a couple threads recently that mention the knockdown feat and I have to ask a quick question about it, as a player in my game is looking to take it.

The only errata I can find about knockdown re: improved trip is from 3rd Edition, which says that Knockdown does NOT trigger improved trip. One of my players insists he found errata/faq that says Knockdown DOES trigger improved trip. I have a feeling he is lying horribly and this would not be the first time he’s tried it, but I just want to check.

Second, would you consider it at all overpowered for me to allow it to work with improved trip, considering the player in question is probably going to be using a straight drow fighter? I don’t think it would be and I’m in favor of melee having nice things, so I’m going to let her have it either way, just curious.

No, Knock-back does not allow a free attack. It basically just changes the order of operations from Touch Attack -> Opposed Check -> Free Attack to Attack -> Opposed Check. Thus it is mathematically more likely to succeed in dealing damage then the vanilla Improved Trip. But I know and trust several Playgrounders who rule the opposite, on the grounds that without the errata players should get a free attack.


If other people in the party are playing Tier 3 or higher builds, I would allow it. If they're playing Tier 4 or lower builds, I would not. A decently optimized Trip build is a joke to the Wizard, but it's like a super hero compared to the Monk.

[AtwasAwamps]

Hrmm. I'll give it some thought. The problem is that one DM in the group ruled that it does give you an extra trip.

Luckily I am helping my players a little with their builds, so almost everyone is at least AROUND tier 3, though one of the clerics and the ranger are about as effective as tier 9. The cleric just casts enlarge person on the fighter and flails uselessly while pretending to be a heal bot ("Why didn't you have close wounds prepared?" "Because then I'd have to lose Light of Lunia!"). The ranger...is the ranger.

[Darrin]

Given that, demand to see the Errata and when he can't find it let him have it anyway. Make him sweat a little for trying to pull a fast one on you. Or if your vindictive tell him 'no' for the same reason.

The errata can be found here.

There is some argument over whether or not the errata still applies. When Deities & Demigods was printed, WotC included Knock-Down as a general feat, but kept pretty much the same wording as Sword & Fist ("Whenever you" became "Whenever the deity") without any mention of the errata. This was either a deliberate omission, or more likely just an editor asleep at the wheel.

When the 3.5 SRD was released, WotC included Knock-Down as a general feat in the Divine section, but with the original Sword & Fist wording, and again, no mention of the errata. Since this was "published" after both 3.0 versions of the feat, some folks feel that this version supercedes the 3.0/errata version, the main thrust of the argument being, if they had really intended to include the errata, why didn't they update the wording?

It kinda boils down to a DM call. Person_Man feels that Attack + Trip + Attack is a little too powerful. I feel differently... I like to lean towards the "Melee needs nice things, too" end of things. (I also love to throw oozes at my PCs, so the advantage of Trip+Knock-Down might somewhat limited.)

[Keld Denar]

more likely just an editor asleep at the wheel.

Friends don't let friends drink and edit...*hick-up*