Shadow Blade Feat: Dex AND Str, or Dex OR Str?

[Lycanthromancer]

The DM says the Shadow Blade feat replaces your Str modifier on damage with your Dex score, Rules as Written, but I say that the 'bonus on melee damage' and lack of reference to replacement means that it adds it to damage.

According to the text of the feat, who is right?

Here's the relevant text:

Spoiler

Show

Benefits: While you are in a Shadow Hand stance, and attack with one of the discipline's preferred weapons, you can add your Dexterity modifier as a bonus on melee damage for attacks made with the weapon.

So, folks, who's following RAW, and who's not?

[Reynard]

It says: 'add your Dexterity modifier as a bonus'.

If it was in place of Str, it'd say so.

[tyckspoon]

^what he said. No replacement is mentioned, so no replacement is done. You get Dex+Str, which is of more use to most characters.

[Kaiyanwang]

So, folks, who's following RAW, and who's not?

Your DM is right because is the DM

Said this, seeing the text, yes I'd say that dex modifier is a further bonus. Are there other references to the feat in the book? Maybe you could have some unexpected suggestion from, say, an NPC example or so.

Even if, WotC is not so great for sample NPC

[demidracolich]

My groups always plays with it replacing str but because its more situational I think that is fine. Because it isn't really fair for dex melee classes to have to take two feats to deal the same damage as str based classes.

[lsfreak]

It's a bonus on top of Strength damage. The table reads that it replaces Strength, your DM might be thinking of that, but text-trumps-table.

[Khellendross]

Is there actually a direct contradiction between table and text? Not really. Shadow Blade's never explicitly states you gain the Dexterity modifier AS WELL AS the Strength modifier, it simply states you gain your Dexterity damage as a bonus to damage. There is no true hard contradiction, so therefor the table is correct. There is more leaning it to that conclusion than the other.

[Weezer]

Is there actually a direct contradiction between table and text? Not really. Shadow Blade's never explicitly states you gain the Dexterity modifier AS WELL AS the Strength modifier, it simply states you gain your Dexterity damage as a bonus to damage. There is no true hard contradiction, so therefor the table is correct. There is more leaning it to that conclusion than the other.

Your argument makes no sense. You seem to be saying that since text and table don't really disagree to ignore the text? Seems nonsensical to me.

The wording is "a bonus on melee damage" so you add it to whatever your damage would have been without the feat. It says nothing about changing other bonuses to damage, such as str.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Is there actually a direct contradiction between table and text? Not really. Shadow Blade's never explicitly states you gain the Dexterity modifier AS WELL AS the Strength modifier, it simply states you gain your Dexterity damage as a bonus to damage. There is no true hard contradiction, so therefor the table is correct. There is more leaning it to that conclusion than the other.

If the text actually was vague I'd agree, but it clearly states that you add (not replace) your dexterity modifier to your damage.

[Khellendross]

What I'm saying is that it doesn't explicitly say in the text you get to add your dex on top of your str. It only eludes to it but when you look at the table it becomes clear which why it's suppose to go. You can say it's "nonsensical" but it's not.

It's vague enough imo and others on other boards I've read that it would be a dex replace.

[KillianHawkeye]

What I'm saying is that it doesn't explicitly say in the text you get to add your dex on top of your str.

It explicitly says you add your Dex bonus to your melee damage. For free. It says nothing about taking away Str or anything else.

[Emmerask]

The DM says the Shadow Blade feat replaces your Str modifier on damage with your Dex score, Rules as Written, but I say that the 'bonus on melee damage' and lack of reference to replacement means that it adds it to damage.

According to the text of the feat, who is right?

Here's the relevant text:

Spoiler

Show

Benefits: While you are in a Shadow Hand stance, and attack with one of the discipline's preferred weapons, you can add your Dexterity modifier as a bonus on melee damage for attacks made with the weapon.

So, folks, who's following RAW, and who's not?

Problem is that the short text says instead while the detailed one says as a bonus.
The short one excludes the longer it specifically says instead.
The detailed one is more of a problem because:
you can add your Dexterity modifier as a bonus on melee damage for attacks made with the weapon can mean both, instead or and

A says X
B says X or Y

So X (which means instead of str) is correct

So yes I would say your dm is correct on that one, though there is some wiggle room for both interpretations

[Shhalahr Windrider]

So if I made a feat that added a bonus to something, I’d have to be extra, extra careful to say “does not replace any current bonus” in the feat text just to keep it safe from typos in the reference table?

And, yes, it’s just a quick reference table. That’s why text trumps table. It’s not meant to have any actual rules. It’s just there to help you find a feat without reading through huge blocks of detailed description. It’s quick reference, not rules. The text must be able to function without the table. If you have to use both the table and the text, you’re doing it wrong.

Note that the SRD includes no such reference table for its feats. If Tome of Battle was written up SRD style, there would be no reference at all to Dex replacing Str.

[Emmerask]

But then we might have enjoyed an errata which clarified it

And yes I agree that text trumps table BUT in that case the text does not necessarily exclude the table

[Keld Denar]

Hmmmm, so if you were completely Dex SAD, and pretty much dumped Str (Grey Elf or Halfling with a 6 Str), since its an add, not a replace, you'd still take your Str penalties on top of your Dex bonus.

And is more useful if you have a positive mod, or is more useful if you have a negative mod, and both equal out if your Str is 10 or 11.

I agree with the And reading, for the reasons stated by others. Guess you still can't completely get away from dumping Str...

[Shhalahr Windrider]

But then we might have enjoyed an errata which clarified it

Clarified it? Without a table, there’d have been no suggestion about it replacing Strength. As such, nothing to clarify.

To say otherwise would be like saying a Paladin’s Divine Grace is meant to replace the Constitution, Dexterity, and Wisdom modifiers on saving throws.

And yes I agree that text trumps table BUT in that case the text does not necessarily exclude the table

I reiterate, the text is meant to be able to stand alone from the table. If you need the reference table along with the text, your feat is totally borked.

Hmmmm, so if you were completely Dex SAD, and pretty much dumped Str (Grey Elf or Halfling with a 6 Str), since its an add, not a replace, you'd still take your Str penalties on top of your Dex bonus.

Of course, you’re still doing +Dex mod more damage than you would be without the feat, so it’s still a net bonus.

And if you’ve so thoroughly dumped Strength, why are you looking at Melee feats, anyway? You should be staying out of melee.

[KillianHawkeye]

Okay, simply put, the feat doesn't NEED to explicitly say that you keep your Str on melee damage. It doesn't. Why? Because that is the default behavior of adding a bonus to something. By default, adding a bonus doesn't take anything away.

If you continue with this ridiculous sentiment, I will begin to argue the following:

• Improved Initiative: it replaces your Dex bonus to initiative with a flat +4.
• Point Blank Shot: it replaces your Dex bonus to ranged attacks within 30 feet with a flat +1.
• Skill Focus: it replaces your relevant ability mod to the selected skill with a flat +3.
• Spell Penetration: it replaces your actual caster level with a flat +2 when trying to overcome a creature's spell resistance.
• Weapon Focus: it replaces your Str or Dex bonus to attacks with the selected weapon with a flat +1. (But don't worry, because Greater Weapon Focus explicitly stacks with it!)
• Weapon Specialization: it replaces your Str bonus to damage with the selected weapon with a flat +2.
• Combat Casting: it replaces your Con bonus to Concentration checks with a flat +4 when casting defensively or while grappled or pinned.
• Endurance: it replaces your relevant ability mod with a flat +4 when making Swim checks to avoid nonlethal damage, checks to continue running, checks to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march, checks to hold your breath, checks to avoid nonlethal damage from starvation and thirst, and Fort saves to avoid nonlethal damage from hot or cold environments or to resist suffocation.
• Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes: they replace your relevant ability mod to Fortitude, Will, and Reflex saves with a flat +2.
• Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Dilligent, Investigator, Magical Aptitude, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, and Stealthy: they replace your relevant ability mod to their respective skills with a flat +2.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

you can add your Dexterity modifier as a bonus on melee damage for attacks made with the weapon can mean both, instead or and

No. It means exactly what it says: You add your Dexterity modifier to your damage. When you add modifiers, the general rule is that they don't interfere with other modifiers, barring stacking rules and such. Lacking any exceptions to a general rule does not mean a feat is vague or subject to various unmentioned exceptions. It clearly means that feat is not subject to those exceptions unless they are written down. If the reference table contradicts the rules text by including these exceptions, well, text trumps table.

[Keld Denar]

You could be completely Dex SAD, or dependant only on Dex and say...Cha with something like Divine Might. Think Pixie Glaivelock/Paladin or something. Or maybe Factotum/Rogue who gets all of his +dmg from other features.

Str in melee is WAY over rated...unless you hapen to be in melee with Shadows...

[Emmerask]

Clarified it? Without a table, there’d have been no suggestion about it replacing Strength. As such, nothing to clarify.

Yes, clarified, because there are two contradicting statements made, one of them is what the designers intended the feat to be the other is a typo or missing word.

The divine Grace analogy is pretty much wrong because there is no textbox which says instead of... so uhm just no

[KillianHawkeye]

Yes, clarified, because there are two contradicting statements made, one of them is what the designers intended the feat to be the other is a typo or missing word.

I see no contradictory information within the feat's text.

EDIT: For reference, the text of Weapon Finesse does explicitly state that "you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls." This is the text (with the reference to attack rolls replaces with damage rolls) that the Shadow Blade feat would HAVE TO HAVE in order for it to not just be a bonus.

[Emmerask]

I see no contradictory information within the feat's text.

well yes players often only see what they want to see

[Longcat]

In D&D, text trumps table.

Hence, Dex+Str

[KillianHawkeye]

well yes players often only see what they want to see

LOL, nice. Okay then, show it to me.

EDIT: Again,

I see no contradictory information within the feat's text.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

well yes players often only see what they want to see

And poor debaters often only ad hominem who they want to ad hominem. The flavor text indicates that you use your "natural agility" to "augment" your attacks with the appropriate weapons. Nowhere in the feat's text does it hint that you are no longer using strength to hurt your enemies.

[Emmerask]

Clarified it? Without a table, there’d have been no suggestion about it replacing Strength. As such, nothing to clarify.

This was the initial response windrider sees no contradiction between the textbox and the text and has seemingly no need for an errata to clarify...
I think differently there because there clearly is one.

I thought your post was not really serious with the within the TEXT, when clearly the argument about the errata was about both the box and the text
So I didn´t really take your post seriously (if it was then sorry), no within the text there is no contradiction whatsoever... still we as players (and dms) don´t know what the actual designers intention for the feat was, hence my remark about the errata.

hope this clears things up for you killian

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

This was the initial response windrider sees no contradiction between the textbox and the text and has seemingly no need for an errata to clarify...
I think differently there because there clearly is one.

He's saying that, without a table, there is no rules contradiction. Your response is that there is obviously a contradiction between the table and the text. Hmm...

[Emmerask]

okay then for him the table is a blank spot in the book it does change very little
Because there is a table and it does contradict and therefore a clarification would be welcome (on my part atleast), but we will never get one

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

okay then for him the table is a blank spot in the book it does change very little

It's a handy reference tool.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Its pretty obvious that it is Dex+Str

I mean, when you smite evil as a paladin, do you ONLY add your cha bonus to hit instead of cha+str?

Adding two modifiers to hitting/damage isn't unheard of people.