Scout build:

[Os1ris09]

Ok so as far as I can see this is the best build I can make for what I am trying to do. Melee rogue who can also be a skill monkey.....

Whisper Gnome
Rogue 4/Ranger 2/C-Cleric 1/Ranger 4/Rogue 9

Feats:
1-Weapon Finese
3-Blind Fight
BF-Track
6-Mage Slayer
BF-Two Weapon Fighting
DT-Travel Devotion/Trickery Devotion
DT-Water Devotion
DT-Knowledge Devotion
BF-Endurance
9-Pierce magical Concealment
BF-Improved TWF
12-Greater TWF
15- Dark Stalker
18- honestly dont know. I need suggestions.

S.A. from rogue 10/13
Skill mastery,Slippery mind

[Curmudgeon]

How is this a Scout build? Scouts stay out of melee. There's nothing there about stealth or reconnoitering.

You might do better with a change to the thread title.

[Gnaritas]

Swordsage.

<edit> also Swift Hunter

[KillianHawkeye]

I was going to reccomend Swift Hunter, but then I realized there aren't actually any Scout levels in your "Scout build".

[Ossian]

Ok so as far as I can see this is the best build I can make for what I am trying to do. Melee rogue who can also be a skill monkey.....

Whisper Gnome
Rogue 4/Ranger 2/C-Cleric 1/Ranger 4/Rogue 9

Feats:
1-Weapon Finese
3-Blind Fight
BF-Track
6-Mage Slayer
BF-Two Weapon Fighting
DT-Travel Devotion/Trickery Devotion
DT-Water Devotion
DT-Knowledge Devotion
BF-Endurance
9-Pierce magical Concealment
BF-Improved TWF
12-Greater TWF
15- Dark Stalker
18- honestly dont know. I need suggestions.

S.A. from rogue 10/13
Skill mastery,Slippery mind

Quick thought: Weapon Finesse requires BAB +1 . As a Rogue of first level you do not yet qualify.

Cheers,


Ossian

[Os1ris09]

@ Curmudgeon- Just because the title says scout doesn't mean you have to be a scout. Like playing a paladin with a crusader. Same name different class.

The idea is to maximize stealth based ideas while taking advantage of two Weapon fighting. I know there is no scout but that is the role he is filling.

Also does S.A. work on all irative attacks such as for having a High enough BAB?

Also the build is starting at level 6. So weapon finese works either way.

[Greenish]

Also does S.A. work on all irative attacks such as for having a High enough BAB?

Yes, you get SA damage on all attacks that qualify for it via targeting flatfooted or flanked enemies.

[Curmudgeon]

@ Curmudgeon- Just because the title says scout doesn't mean you have to be a scout.

That wasn't my point. My point was that a scout (of any class) should be stealthy, able to reconnoiter solo, and stay out of melee. A character dedicated to full melee attacks doesn't meet those requirements at all.

[Gnaritas]

That wasn't my point. My point was that a scout (of any class) should be stealthy, able to reconnoiter solo, and stay out of melee. A character dedicated to full melee attacks doesn't meet those requirements at all.

A scout should be stealthy indeed, and needs to have good eyes and ears. It needs those to do the scouting functions.

But stay out of melee does not seem like a prerequisite. It is the view you have on a scout and probably a sniping scout is indeed the more traditional view, but still.

[Os1ris09]

That wasn't my point. My point was that a scout (of any class) should be stealthy, able to reconnoiter solo, and stay out of melee. A character dedicated to full melee attacks doesn't meet those requirements at all.

Well the skills maxed are as follows:

Listen, Search, Spot, Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Open Lock, Use Magic Device

I am asking for advice to help with the concept not a critique on what constitutes as a scout. No harsh tone in there btw just making sure we all know what I am looking for.

A scout should be stealthy indeed, and needs to have good eyes and ears. It needs those to do the scouting functions.

But stay out of melee does not seem like a prerequisite. It is the view you have on a scout and probably a sniping scout is indeed the more traditional view, but still.

I agree and the way I view a scout is someone who does just that, scouts the area and reports back, nothing in that description has to do with battle OR how they fight.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I see what you are trying to do, however you are crippled by poor synergy with your classes.

The first four levels need to be actually Scout, not Rogue. They still get Trapfinding, they still get all the skills you want.

Reason: Swift Hunter.

This lets you apply precision-based damage to Favored Enemies, so you choose Undead/Constructs/Plants/Oozes as your Favored Enemies and you can Sneak Attack practically everything.

The one-level dip in Cloistered Cleric is still a good reason for Devotions, most specifically is Travel Devotion. This gives you another Move action, which lets you Skirmish much more frequently. You will also want to do Knowledge Devotion for extra damage output.

An alternative to Travel Devotion would be a one-level dip in Lion-Totem Barbarian for Pounce, which is godlike for any TWF build.

After Swift hunter and your cherry-pick Cloistered Cleric dip, you got some more options, but my first suggestion to you would be a dip into Swordsage. This nets you:

* Assassin's Stance. Yes, it's that good.
* Shadow Blade. Dex to Damage? Dex to Hit? Who needs Strength?
* Sapphire Nightmare Blade. Target is declared Flat-Footed for your attack. Good against things with Uncanny Dodge. Bonus points if you say 'Dodge This' as you activate.

Then finish off with more Ranger. Because Ranger = more Skirmish due to Swift Hunter.

[Os1ris09]

I see what you are trying to do, however you are crippled by poor synergy with your classes.

The first four levels need to be actually Scout, not Rogue. They still get Trapfinding, they still get all the skills you want.

Reason: Swift Hunter.

This lets you apply precision-based damage to Favored Enemies, so you choose Undead/Constructs/Plants/Oozes as your Favored Enemies and you can Sneak Attack practically everything.

The one-level dip in Cloistered Cleric is still a good reason for Devotions, most specifically is Travel Devotion. This gives you another Move action, which lets you Skirmish much more frequently. You will also want to do Knowledge Devotion for extra damage output.

An alternative to Travel Devotion would be a one-level dip in Lion-Totem Barbarian for Pounce, which is godlike for any TWF build.

After Swift hunter and your cherry-pick Cloistered Cleric dip, you got some more options, but my first suggestion to you would be a dip into Swordsage. This nets you:

* Assassin's Stance. Yes, it's that good.
* Shadow Blade. Dex to Damage? Dex to Hit? Who needs Strength?
* Sapphire Nightmare Blade. Target is declared Flat-Footed for your attack. Good against things with Uncanny Dodge. Bonus points if you say 'Dodge This' as you activate.

Then finish off with more Ranger. Because Ranger = more Skirmish due to Swift Hunter.

Ok I like the idea and may change the race because of it. Honestly though Whisper Gnome is the best rogue race and more importantly I may have to do some convincing to the player for her to try it out. Honestly though I have done a Ranger/scout/Dervish build before in a lvl 30 campaign so I know how scout and ranger synergize. I was going for the fluff in the RoS that states that whisper gnomes who are rogues usually multi-class into ranger,cleric, or fighter. Taking the best two out of the three which is why I did it. Unfortunately though I forgot all about the XP penalty for classing c-cleric and ranger.

So back to the drawing board.... ugh......

[KillianHawkeye]

Reason: Swift Hunter.

This lets you apply precision-based damage to Favored Enemies, so you choose Undead/Constructs/Plants/Oozes as your Favored Enemies and you can Sneak Attack practically everything.

Correction: this only applies to Skirmish damage, not precision damage in general. Swift Hunter has no effect on your ability to Sneak Attack.

[Fouredged Sword]

It rules with alchemist fire arrows or a sling with the same. You deal sneak attack dmg in the same type as the weapon. Now your sneak attacks can be touch attacks dealing fire damage. Swift tracker makes this work for undead. This gets around quite a bit of DR. You have to worry about FR, but that is why you carry liquid salt arrows as well if your DM will houserule those in. Desicration damage! Almost nothing resists that! Trolls will fear you!

I think you can use it as a melee splash weapon as well. Look into the rules. At level 6 being able to pull out a odd damage type as a touch attack is powerful. Doubly so if you can turn that into a sneak attack. Keep a few bottles of any splash weapon you can get your hands on. It healps to be prepared. I think there is Holy, Unholy, Fire, Acid, Frost, Desicration, and a few others. Track them down and carry them all.

[Os1ris09]

It rules with alchemist fire arrows or a sling with the same. You deal sneak attack dmg in the same type as the weapon. Now your sneak attacks can be touch attacks dealing fire damage. Swift tracker makes this work for undead. This gets around quite a bit of DR. You have to worry about FR, but that is why you carry liquid salt arrows as well if your DM will houserule those in. Desicration damage! Almost nothing resists that! Trolls will fear you!

I think you can use it as a melee splash weapon as well. Look into the rules. At level 6 being able to pull out a odd damage type as a touch attack is powerful. Doubly so if you can turn that into a sneak attack. Keep a few bottles of any splash weapon you can get your hands on. It healps to be prepared. I think there is Holy, Unholy, Fire, Acid, Frost, Desicration, and a few others. Track them down and carry them all.

hold on where is this ruling?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It rules with alchemist fire arrows or a sling with the same. You deal sneak attack dmg in the same type as the weapon. Now your sneak attacks can be touch attacks dealing fire damage. Swift tracker makes this work for undead. This gets around quite a bit of DR. You have to worry about FR, but that is why you carry liquid salt arrows as well if your DM will houserule those in. Desicration damage! Almost nothing resists that! Trolls will fear you!

I think you can use it as a melee splash weapon as well. Look into the rules. At level 6 being able to pull out a odd damage type as a touch attack is powerful. Doubly so if you can turn that into a sneak attack. Keep a few bottles of any splash weapon you can get your hands on. It healps to be prepared. I think there is Holy, Unholy, Fire, Acid, Frost, Desicration, and a few others. Track them down and carry them all.

Meh, a one-level dip in Warlock is better, because it does about the same damage, is also a ranged touch attack, doesn't have to worry about energy immunities, doesn't eat up your WBL, and also nets you either Darkness for DotUD darkness-feats, or Beguiling Influence for diplomancy cheese.

And yes, you can sneak attack with anything that requires an attack roll and has a specific target.

[Os1ris09]

And yes, you can sneak attack with anything that requires an attack roll and has a specific target.

Ok... But where does it state that specifically?

"Basically, the rogue's attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."

That is verbatum from the PH and it only states "attack" which is leading me towards a singular strike or attack. Not multiples.... Please help me out on how you guys are getting SA to apply to each and every attack.

[PId6]

That is verbatum from the PH and it only states "attack" which is leading me towards a singular strike or attack. Not multiples.... Please help me out on how you guys are getting SA to apply to each and every attack.

Wait, what?

You make an attack. The target is denied Dex to AC. The attack deals Sneak Attack damage. You make another attack. The target is still denied Dex to AC. The attack also deals Sneak Attack damage.

I don't see where the confusion is coming from.

[Os1ris09]

Ok... But where does it state that specifically?

"Basically, the rogue's attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."

That is verbatum from the PH and it only states "attack" which is leading me towards a singular strike or attack. Not multiples.... Please help me out on how you guys are getting SA to apply to each and every attack.

Wait, what?

You make an attack. The target is denied Dex to AC. The attack deals Sneak Attack damage. You make another attack. The target is still denied Dex to AC. The attack also deals Sneak Attack damage.

I don't see where the confusion is coming from.

To me the phrase is stated as only allowing 1 attack to sneak attack. There is nothing stated about multiple attacks nor is it written in such a way. Maybe I am wrong I shall ask my DM.

[Mongoose87]

To me the phrase is stated as only allowing 1 attack to sneak attack. There is nothing stated about multiple attacks nor is it written in such a way. Maybe I am wrong I shall ask my DM.

It says no where that "One attack" does sneak attack damage. It says your attack, meaning an attack you make. If you make four attacks, those are all attacks you make.

[Flickerdart]

To me the phrase is stated as only allowing 1 attack to sneak attack. There is nothing stated about multiple attacks nor is it written in such a way. Maybe I am wrong I shall ask my DM.

A full attack consists of a number of attacks. Each attack is an attack. Therefore, each attack is checked for eligibility of a Sneak Attack.

[2xMachina]

For Manyshot, you're right, only 1st can apply precision damage. It is explicitly stated.

For those that don't? Applies for each and every.

[Fax Celestis]

Here's what I'd do for what you seem to be looking for:

Scout 3/Ranger 3/Dread Commando 5/Ranger 9

Use the Champion of the Wild and Distracting Attack ranger alternate class features. Champion of the Wild (Complete Champion) removes your spellcasting and gives you a bonus fighter feat every four ranger levels. Distracting Attack (Player's Handbook II) removes your animal companion (which is pretty shoddy anyway) and gives you the ability to flat-foot your opponents. The Scout ACF is interesting, but probably not worthwhile for what you're doing (though a climb speed is useful in a multitude of situations).

Dread Commando (Heroes of Battle) lets you use heavier armor better and gives you Sudden Strike, an init boost, and great stealth power. Heroes of Battle also contains the Guerilla Scout and Guerilla Warrior feats.

The last thing you'll want is Swift Hunter from Complete Scoundrel, which stacks your Ranger and Scout levels for Skirmish and Favored Enemy.

If your DM will let you get away with it, one level of Lion Totem Barbarian (alternate class feature from Complete Champion) will give you pounce, which will let you full-attack skirmish and get your sudden strike (from Dread Commando) if you manage to pounce on someone who's flat-footed.

For Manyshot, you're right, only 1st can apply precision damage. It is explicitly stated.

For those that don't? Applies for each and every.

Greater Manyshot specifies that it applies. General rule is, you can sneak attack once per attack roll.

[Greenish]

Honestly though Whisper Gnome is the best rogue race

It's a great race for rogues, but I wouldn't declare it the best. There are a few others who can put up a fight, such as Strongheart halflings and of course kobolds.

To me the phrase is stated as only allowing 1 attack to sneak attack. There is nothing stated about multiple attacks nor is it written in such a way. Maybe I am wrong I shall ask my DM.

Yes, you only get one Sneak Attack, ever, so better make it count since it's major class feature. Perhaps save it for the BBEG? /sarcasm

"The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."

Any time. Any attack action.

Oh, and hey: "Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet."

Does this mean you only get multiple Sneak Attacks with ranged attacks?

[Fax Celestis]

About the Sneak Attack debate: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a

Particularly relevant:

Number of Sneak Attacks

Provided it is possible for you to make a sneak attack at all, you can make multiple sneak attacks when you use the full attack action. For example, if you have a higher initiative result at the beginning of an encounter, your foe is flat-footed and every attack you make is a sneak attack. The same is true if you flank your foe.

Anything that allows you to make extra attacks during the full attack action gets you extra sneak attacks as well: fighting with two weapons, the haste spell, and the monk's flurry of blows are the most common ways of getting extra attacks.

Remember the earlier note about invisibility effects, however. If you're relying on invisibility to set up a sneak attack, you'll only have the effect for the first attack you make during your turn. You'll still get all your extra attacks, but only the first will be a sneak attack. You don't have this problem if you're using a greater invisibility effect.

[Os1ris09]

Yes, you only get one Sneak Attack, ever, so better make it count since it's major class feature. Perhaps save it for the BBEG? /sarcasm

Greenish come on man. Be nice geez.... lol I am only curious because of the wording.

About the Sneak Attack debate: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a

Particularly relevant:

Thanks Fax for these links. I will take a look at them and see what I can find out. Thanks again GITP.