Command Undead - Control Undead - Command Undead

[tundrawalker1]

Hey there all! Been a lurker a long time but finally created an account to join in on the fun discussions. So, first off, hi!

So, my discussion topic is this. I am going to be playing a 20th level Dread Necromancer in an upcoming one-shot/two-shot game hosted by forum user Tyger. We have been discussing like crazy the what if's about this game and it has been amusing. Our latest discussion surrounds the spells Command Undead and Control Undead.

Command Undead works like Charm Person for undead and it has intelligent undead treating you as friendly. You cannot get them to do suicidal actions with this spell but you can convince them on the merrits of a potentially dangerous action. But, Control Undead allows you to control them, albeit for a short period of time and even possibly more troubling, they remember they were controlled.

So, you come across a rather mean Lich who you cast Command Undead on and tah-dah, he likes you. So he hangs around for some time with you as you two strike up a good time where everyone is happy. Then, uh-oh, a dragon comes along and you need the Lich to kill it. (Yeah I know, a 20th level game with all the tweeking going on, a dragon is not much of a challenge, but still...). So you cast Control Undead and you send the Lich off to fight the dragon and the Lich wins. He really didn't want to fight the powerful dragon but he was compelled due to your spell and now he is a might bit angry with you. So, I cast Command Undead again and the Lich is all likey again. He will still remember that I send him out to do a suicidal action but I am just that charming that he likes me anyway.

What are the in game ramifications of this event? Will be act to kill me? Will he be all forgiving based on the Command Undead spell again? Will he seek to have another undead come attack me? Will he plot to use my phylactery as a juicer? Thoughts? And thanks!

[Another_Poet]

What are the in game ramifications of this event? Will be act to kill me? Will he be all forgiving based on the Command Undead spell again? Will he seek to have another undead come attack me? Will he plot to use my phylactery as a juicer? Thoughts? And thanks!

If all three spells are successful (he fails his save) then you should have no problem. Just make sure to either keep him under Command forever or destroy him when you're done with him, he will be vengeful otherwise. Also expecting a lich to fail 3 saving throws may be a bad plan.

[Caliphbubba]

what happens when he casts Command Undead/Control Undead on you too is the real question.

Hilarious Undead Hippy Lovefest.

[Another_Poet]

what happens when he casts Command Undead/Control Undead on you too is the real question.

Hilarious Undead Hippy Lovefest.

Presumably he couldn't once he's under Command Undead himself, so it's a battle of who wins initiative when the two first meet.

edit: A smart lich would cast Command Undead on himself every day, as it will allow him to make an opposed Cha check against anyone else who successfully puts Command Undead on him, every time they ask him to do something.

[Caliphbubba]

[QUOTE=Another_Poet;8716383]Presumably he couldn't once he's under Command Undead himself, so it's a battle of who wins initiative when the two first meet. [QUOTE]

Why couldn't he? Seems perfectly reasonable to me that if you like this other Lich so well you'd want have him like you too, by any means. lol

[Another_Poet]

Why couldn't he? Seems perfectly reasonable to me that if you like this other Lich so well you'd want have him like you too, by any means. lol

Seems dubious to me. I wouldn't allow a Charm Person'd PC to Charm Person the villain who Charmed them. Turning the tables and doing it to the PC seems underhanded. You could make a case for it, but it's kind of low.

[Caliphbubba]

Seems dubious to me. I wouldn't allow a Charm Person'd PC to Charm Person the villain who Charmed them. Turning the tables and doing it to the PC seems underhanded. You could make a case for it, but it's kind of low.

Why? Unless the character is given specific commands to NOT do it, and it's something they'd normally do I see no reason to disallow it.

[tundrawalker1]

Ok, lets not use the Lich as an example but some other powerful undead creature. Something that cannot cast command undead. Would the creature attempt to overthrow my character if it failed the second Command Undead? Would it still be angry? Would it forgive the Control spell?

[Caliphbubba]

Ok, lets not use the Lich as an example but some other powerful undead creature. Something that cannot cast command undead. Would the creature attempt to overthrow my character if it failed the second Command Undead? Would it still be angry? Would it forgive the Control spell?

I think it entirely depends on how you treated it before the Control Undead was cast. And it's individual personality. It's likely that it'll seek revenge, because ya know Evil. But if you treated it well before-hand, continued to provide it with oppertunities to do whatever it does to 'enjoy' itself, and maybe a good dose of fear of destruction it might fall back into line pretty quickly. And if it doesn't, well there is always Rebuking the snot out of it. lol

[Another_Poet]

Would the creature attempt to overthrow my character if it failed the second Command Undead? Would it still be angry? Would it forgive the Control spell?

Yes, yes, and no. Since the Control spell was used to force it to put itself in danger and act against its nature, the first Command spell was broken. Once the Control spell ends you either need to re-Command it, destroy it, or run.

[tundrawalker1]

Yes, yes, and no. Since the Control spell was used to force it to put itself in danger and act against its nature, the first Command spell was broken. Once the Control spell ends you either need to re-Command it, destroy it, or run.

It was supposed to read it failed it savings throw on the second Command Undead. So lets assume it failed the savings throw on the second Command Undead after you had it do something very very dangerous, what would the outcome be?

[Escheton]

I would houserule DM a dc increase of 2 for a negative circumstance bonus on the second command because he is pissed off at you.

[Another_Poet]

It was supposed to read it failed it savings throw on the second Command Undead. So lets assume it failed the savings throw on the second Command Undead after you had it do something very very dangerous, what would the outcome be?

Then the spell works, as long as you are not currently threatening it.