[3.5/X] Destroying the Gods of Magic!: How?

[WeeFreeMen]

***Disclaimer*** Thought Exercise

As plainly as I can put it.

How would you go about Killing "The" gods of Magic: Boccob, Corellon Larethian, and Wee Jas (and any underlings). In no particular order unless needed.
Could you use Magic against him? Or would he Will your "powers" away.
Could you beat-stick him to death?

He would be all powerful. After all, hes the Wizards Wizard.
What hope would an Evil-doer for the sake of Evil and Chaos have against this god.

This came up in a conversation between me and a friend on AIM.
Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts.

[Mystic Muse]

What's the point of this. I know it's a thought exercise but is there a goal you're trying to accomplish?

[PId6]

There was a CO thread on killing deities with level 20 characters somewhere that I can no longer find. The basic agreement was that if you could get close to a deity and get an action off, you can kill them. However, you had to get into their divine realm, get through their followers, and get past their foresight with relation to their portfolios (which their death would assuredly affect). I think they eventually managed to kill off some demigods and intermediate deities or something.

However, one thing is certain: you do not go after a god of death. They tend to have the Life and Death salient divine ability, which can kill you no save no matter where you are. Kill Boccob and Corellon if you want, but you don't mess with Wee Jas.

[WeeFreeMen]

Not entirely, Its a thought exercise.
We both wanted to know How the heck one would be able to do it.

All we can come up with is: 1) Disconnect him of his Plane. 2) Destroy all their followers (unfortunately, this means destroying every caster EVER).

So no, this isn't a BBEG plot for a campaign or anything of the sort.
Just two curious people looking for creative answers.

[PId6]

Well, you can always try to Mindrape + Love's Pain him to death.

[WeeFreeMen]

There was a CO thread on killing deities with level 20 characters somewhere that I can no longer find. The basic agreement was that if you could get close to a deity and get an action off, you can kill them. However, you had to get into their divine realm, get through their followers, and get past their foresight with relation to their portfolios (which their death would assuredly affect). I think they eventually managed to kill off some demigods and intermediate deities or something.

However, one thing is certain: you do not go after a god of death. They tend to have the Life and Death salient divine ability, which can kill you no save no matter where you are. Kill Boccob and Corellon if you want, but you don't mess with Wee Jas.

Ah, you are indeed correct.
We knew of the Divine Rank problems from before, but Live and Death escaped me for a moment.

That is indeed a problem. So ok, Wee Jas withstanding, how about the other two? What did the other forum say about killing them?

How would you get through their defenses? And out of all the deities I would think Boccob would be the last to mess with.

[Clovis]

Hmm, perhaps you could get a time lord to do the job? They're way beyond magic, from high cosmos. Or if you could somehow get the said gods into the Far Realms? How would a lawful god manage to handle that primordial soup of chaos?

[WeeFreeMen]

Haha, Yeah. Thats what we were thinking.
You'd have to get them into un-familar territory.
As for God vs. God, I don't know how one would stage that especially with Boccob being a god of Balance. Overwhelming neutrality is..annoying.

[Clovis]

For Boccob get Asmodeus to do the job. He's certainly capable enough and, as lawful, he's more than happy to destroy neutral beings. The real problem is to make it worth his while...

Or, better yet, make an elaborate scheme where they insult the Lady of Pain. Hilarity ensues.

[WeeFreeMen]

Keep going. Im listening.

[TurtleKing]

Have them to somehow piss off some Over Diety like Lady of Pain or Pun Pun. In the cosmology I am creating they did something like that in a Spelljammer setting. The pieces of that planet- no larger than an atom- are already three fourths across the ever expanding universe. The Deity they pissed off is even older than the Over Dieties.

Darn it Ninja'd.

[Clovis]

One of the old ones or a bat-crazy elder has gotten its hands on a neutronium golem and sends it after gods of magic. A neutronium golem's heat aura alone deals 62d1000 of divine fire damage. That's pretty harsh even for a god to deflect.

[Myth]

Anything with Llife and Death/Mass Life and Death is impossible as mentioned already. For the others, bar Epic Spellcasting you can't realistically take them on (unless you use infinite loops but that's cheating IMO as it was not WTOC's intention for having the abilites work like that)

Check their stats out in Deities and Demigods. Most DR16+ gods have 40-50 class leves on top of 20 Outsider HD. They are immune to almost everything, they have a lot of firepower and they do have that aformentioned foresight.

Also, stay away from divine Bards like Apollo, their Bardic Music can affect creatures normally immune to mind-affecting things, which could make your party just sit there and drool.

For Boccob get Asmodeus to do the job. He's certainly capable

Boccob would splatter him... Looking at ol' Asmo's stats in the BOVD and comparing them with Boccob from DD, it looks like he won't be able to do anything.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Well, this is a good way to stop wizards from being overpowered, I suppose.

[Grumman]

Could you use Magic against him? Or would he Will your "powers" away.

Unlike the Forgotten Realms, the core deities of magic do not have this sort of automatic, absolute control over magic. This is a good thing, in my opinion.

All we can come up with is: 1) Disconnect him of his Plane. 2) Destroy all their followers (unfortunately, this means destroying every caster EVER).

As far as I'm concerned, even if you cut off a deity from any external sources of divine power, they're still fully capable of using their own inherent power. I really don't like the Gods Need Prayer Badly trope.

[Vaynor]

Unlike the Forgotten Realms, the core deities of magic do not have this sort of automatic, absolute control over magic. This is a good thing, in my opinion.

Seems to me like that would make it divine magic, anyhow.

[Ranos]

As far as I'm concerned, even if you cut off a deity from any external sources of divine power, they're still fully capable of using their own inherent power. I really don't like the Gods Need Prayer Badly trope.

Yeah, but at this point the deity's back at divine rank 0. They're still epic level, sure, but most of their divine power's gone. Of course, doing that would be even more difficult than somehow sneaking in its divine domain and killing them without their portfolio sense activating 3 weeks beforehand.

Only way I can see this working is by becoming a god yourself. The most difficult part is getting that divine rank 0 (You could use cheese, sure, but that's probably gonna get you killed). After that, all you gotta do is get enough worshippers to rival your target.

[WeeFreeMen]

@Grumman Ah so your saying, that Boccob COULDN'T cut off your Magic? Even if he is the god of it? That makes it MUCH more possible.

As for Life and Death, Im sure its stupid asking but is that a Protect able Death effect?

As for getting your own Worshipers, We thought of that too, but that seems like Epic Leadership + Extra Followers * Y

As for that Golem Idea, Im pretty sure Boccob would just Dismiss it or Iron Coffin it or Nail it to the Sky..

Is there a "God Killer" monster? I would think that there would NEED to be one in order to obtain Balance. That seems to me like it should be on of the Fundamentals. On a side note, How would one Remove a god from their realm? Maybe some EPIC EPIC bluff, or maybe Once every X^10^Nth years He leaves his domain for a Counsel of the gods? What about plane old "Infernal Legion" on his plane?
So assuming he can't wisk away your personal magic, we have 4 options thus far?

1) Detach him from his Plane and Fight with Epic Casting
2) Send a Bigger Baddy (if possible) at him.
3) Attempt to beat him out on his own turf with Epic spellcasting? (And seed abuse.)
4) Get followers and ATTEMPT to become a god with Divine Rank, In order to be on EVEN footing when he is OFF his divine plane. (This seems the most plausible.. but would obviously require some shenanigans.)

For the sake of Simplicity lets say were JUST trying to Kill Boccob (If you can call that Simplicity)

[TheLaughingLich]

It looks to me as though there is a defence against Life and Death after all. Note carefully the wording of the ability:

If the deity chooses to kill a mortal, the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw.

Interestingly enough, destruction is Necromancy [Death]. This means we merely need immunity to death effects - being a Construct or Undead is probably the most reliable method. Nowhere, so far as I know, is it stated that deities may ignore immunity to death effects when using a [Death] spell. Life and Death itself does inform us that:

This ability works across planar boundaries and penetrates any barrier except a divine shield.

However, while this clearly means that the ability cannot be stopped by barriers, objects, wards, or the like, innate immunity to death effects as a consequence of creature type cannot reasonably be construed as a "barrier" that may be "penetrated" to get at some sort of soft death-vulnerable filling. This interpretation is given further support by the fact that Life and Death specifically and separately states that its destruction-like effect ignores saving throws - the ability can target a creature anywhere, but the effect is clearly that of destruction, minus the material component and saving throw, plus a deity's ability to ignore spell resistance. By RAW, then, it appears that it does not have power quite as absolute as was intended.

[WeeFreeMen]

@TheLaughingLich: First, let me say. Your Avatar is by far my favorite amoung this entire site. Bravo sir, Bravo.

Secondly, I thought as much. I read the same thing, and Destruction is a [Death] spell. As such, death wards (or as you stated, being outright immune with Undead template) Should render that not a problem?

Its RAW were dealing with...So.. yeah.

[Aharon]

Here's the WotC discussion.

They ignored many of the deities abilities, though:

They don't actually list the buffs the deities have. In actual play, the ones that have Alter Reality could have every spell in D&D made permanent on them, and still be totally within the limits of their listed stats and abilities.

Depending on how you think their immunity to Antimagic Fields works, this could make them pretty much unkillable.

Well, maybe this is RAI-land, then, but I'd stipulate that Alter Reality wasn't supposed to work with itself. I.e. no undispellable buffs. I'd also stipulate that if everything with Alter Reality is buffed to the moon, their normal stats would hardly warrant inclusion into D&DG.

I'd say give them all the buffs that last a day or longer at a CL of say 25 (Boccob's SLAs have that CL). Maybe use *some* more depending on flavour.

So what do you suggest, disjunction? We can get around an AMF easily enough. If Cleric, Initiate of Mystra, if Wizard, Incantatrix+Selective Spell. Disjunction should get rid of all buffs, then, and if we get high enough DCs, we destroy their non-artefact items and have a chance of destroying their artefacts. You'd need extra actions, though. White Raven tactics lets you give your party mates actions, doesn't it? Have a cohort or party member give you extra actions so you can disjunction and then do your other magic.

Disclaimer: I don't know wether the gods you mentioned have access to Alter reality, if they do, you probably have to apply the above to defeat them.

[Thespianus]

I can't believe we made it this far without someone answering the question:

[3.5/X] Destroying the Gods of Magic!: How?

with:

Play a Druid.

[Eldariel]

Karsus's Avatar? It worked fine the first time, even if not intended for that use.

[SilveryCord]

Hmm, perhaps you could get a time lord to do the job? They're way beyond magic, from high cosmos. Or if you could somehow get the said gods into the Far Realms? How would a lawful god manage to handle that primordial soup of chaos?

The Far Realms are in no way affiliated with Chaos, or even Evil. The essence of the Far Realms is something far worse, and far more terrifying.

[Clovis]

The Far Realms are in no way affiliated with Chaos, or even Evil. The essence of the Far Realms is something far worse, and far more terrifying.

Ok, my bad. But how would it affect 3.5 gods? Would they survive there, being (in most cases) fueled by worship? Asked he, thinking about sending his PC god on a trip there...

[WeeFreeMen]

How would one get the god to move to the far reams? As stated before, that'd be as easy as actually killing him to begin with.

As for the "Play a Druid/Wizard/-Insert Tier # Here-" That is what were working on.. and have yet to have an answer. So unless you wish to give a more constructive answer than "Play a Druid"

Not to mention, Why druid over Wizard? Wizard would get Shapechange and BE a druid.. but better. BUT LETS NOT START THAT HERE!

Back to the topic.
Perhaps some Epic Bard Bluff? Can gods even be lied to or atleast "Suggested" by way of Epic bluff? IE: "You should visit the Far Realms Boccob, because its Stunning this time of Year"

Althou, by Boccob lore, he is a traveler and per-curer of knowledge. Maybe getting him to visit their wouldn't take so much? Or has it already done it?

[2xMachina]

Doesn't the God of Magic have Wizard 20 as part of the job?

Private demi plane that's divinely morphic. Have fun getting in, or doing anything there.

[Thespianus]

As for the "Play a Druid/Wizard/-Insert Tier # Here-" That is what were working on.. and have yet to have an answer. So unless you wish to give a more constructive answer than "Play a Druid"

I was joking. Sorry if that led the thread astray.

[Myth]

OK guys, can i post Boccob's stats for all to see? They need to be updated to 3.5 though unless there is another source apart from DD which is 3.0. One of the things they changed was godly DR and Fast Healing (DR was nerfed in 3.5 and with good reason), but the really important stuff is still the same.

Mind you Boccob is far from optimized - he makes no use of Epic rules, no non-core classes or spells or equipment. I will just run him as if he actually is a GOD with GODLY intelligence.

Rules: No infinite loops, wishes, endless shadow dragons, infinite actions, infinite damage and pun-pun like shenannigans.

You get 4 lvl 20 characters, any 3.5 books.

[WeeFreeMen]

@Myth If its been released for Fair use then I BELEIVE you can post it. If nothing else, link it. I am unfamiliar with this forums rules on such things.

@Thespians Its fine man, It was 5am here, I was Irate from taking 4 hour long tests back to back. No harm done.

@2xMachinia Well yes, I believe he does have 20 Wizard onto of his 50HD Outsider. He however, isn't optimized (As are ANY gods really).
We found a work-around for his You Lose ability, We got a way to Dispel his enchantments. All thats left is getting in (or him out) and actually engaging (and how).

Our benefit is, we are lv20-30, not bound by Core and Creative.
So let the thoughts fly.