[3.5] My First Casting Class

[The Red Geist]

Hello again, Giant in the Playground Forum-people. Quite a while ago I posted a topic about an RP Heavy Barbarian and received some great assistance in crafting the character. Sadly the game dwindled out before I got the chance to explore the build, but I'm coming back to you lot in the hopes of some further assistance.

My DM, same guy as last time, is running another campaign, this time at level 7. He's said we're free to play any classes we like. Normally I go for the hands-on warrior type, but I figured since I have the opportunity I'll try out a caster. The DM is open to most classes as long as I can cite a book.

I'm planning for a human (because I'm boring) but I don't have enough knowledge of casting classes and their Prestige's to make this interesting. Any recommendations for a newbie?

[Ernir]

Do you have any ideas on the character concept yet? Do you want your mage to be sneaky, blasty, diviner-y, or casts-spells-but-still-knows-how-to-use-a-sharp-stick-y?

[Frog Dragon]

I'd recommend one of those fixed list casters. As in, Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror), Beguiler (Player's Handbook 2), or Warmage (Complete Arcane). I have to warn though that the Warmage is one of the weakest casters printed (without counting stuff like the truenamer) if you don't use Rainbow Servant shenanigans (which you shouldn't). My personal favourite is the Beguiler, but all are in the tier 3-4 category and should work in most parties.

[Lin Bayaseda]

I'm planning for a human (because I'm boring) but I don't have enough knowledge of casting classes and their Prestige's to make this interesting. Any recommendations for a newbie?

For a first-time caster, you probably want a Sorcerer. Simple yet effective. Make sure to poke around the 'net for a reasonable spell selection - don't want to get stuck with poor spells.

[Doc Roc]

Am I allowed to link this? It should be okay, I don't see any ToS violations...

[DragoonWraith]

Personally, I don't think Sorcerer is a good idea unless your DM agrees to allow you to retrain spells more often than you can by default (1 every 2 levels is incredibly harsh), just because for someone new to casting, selecting poor spells known sucks. Wizards are "harder" in that preparing spells is a difficult thing to do, but much more forgiving in that you get a new chance to do so every day.

I'm going to give my +1 to the Beguiler. The Warlock or Dragonfire Adept aren't bad choices (at all) either, but they're not really spellcasters and aren't going to teach you about spell use.

[Yuki Akuma]

I would advise against anything that has to pick their spells known and has no way of getting more - no Sorcerers, Bards or Psionic classes that aren't Erudites.

So, pick a full-list spontaneous type, or a prepared divine caster. Maybe a Wizard but they take a lot of bookkeeping...

[Rixx]

I would, on the other hand, totally endorse a spontaneous spellcaster like a Sorcerer. It's a great way to transition from a warrior to a prepared caster - you have a fixed arsenal, but instead of an arsenal of weapons, it's an arsenal of spells. And you don't have to prepare them!

Plus, having a limited selection encourages creativity.

[AmberVael]

I'd recommend one of those fixed list casters. As in, Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror), Beguiler (Player's Handbook 2), or Warmage (Complete Arcane). I have to warn though that the Warmage is one of the weakest casters printed (without counting stuff like the truenamer) if you don't use Rainbow Servant shenanigans (which you shouldn't). My personal favourite is the Beguiler, but all are in the tier 3-4 category and should work in most parties.

I second this. I'd probably recommend Beguiler specifically, but that's just because I really like their skills.

In general, one of these classes is going to be a lot better to try out at first as opposed to a Sorcerer or Wizard.

[Frosty]

+1 for Beguiler. High tier 3/low tier 2 depending on the cheese you pull. You can't mess it up, and there's no PrCing required at all to make one awesome. In fact, taking more than one PrC level for a beguiler is considered bad in most builds, and that one level dip is to get Telepathy and to delay advanced learning.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Ill put a vote in for Duskblades, That will still allow you to be somewhat effective in your love of smacking people around as well as having some arcane floating around there too. Check out the Duskblade Handbook for which spells to pick which honestly...there isn't a whole heck of a lot to choose from.

[Il_Vec]

If you really are always in for the warrior-types, I'd suggest starting with a gish(warrior-mage) and later on taking the role of arcanist.
I am currently planning to bring to my game table a neraph Wizard /Knight Phantom (Eberron Five Nations)/Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage).

[Snake-Aes]

Ok, spellcasting for newbies.

Spellcasting's true power isn't damage, but control and foresight.
Spellcasting of top-notch power demands planning worth of that int 18 wizards like to start with.


If you don't want to jump straight to wizards and sorcerers (it's really a lot of micromanagement and some out of box thinking), then fixed list casters are good ideas. Beguilers and Warmagi are good starts. Warmagi are kinda paradoxal because their spells consist basically of exploding stuff and buffing stuff. But both classes are of relatively simple spellcasting and as such good to get started.

The Vancian system (spell slots, memorizing spells to shoot and forget them until the other day) is crunchy. My personal recommendation if you don't want Vancian is Psionic.Psionic spellcasting is simpler to keep track because all spells take from the same pool (think mana), and they scale in a connected manner.

A fair start would be a Psychic Warrior, whose spells are more focused on buffing and debuffing. A full psionic caster would be the Psion, analog to wizards.

[Scorpina]

Cleric is pretty easy since, aside from Domains, you don't have to select any spells (as you have to with Wizard, Bard and Sorcerer), so you can experiment by preparing different spells each day until you find out which ones you're going to want to make the cornerstones of your repetoir.

[Optimystik]

I would go with a Shugenja - they have a lot of the advantages of the sorcerer, and more - plus, they are very newbie-friendly.

- d6 HD (instead of d4)
- 4 + Int skills (instead of 2 + Int)
- Cha-focused (SAD) like sorcs
- Diplomacy instead of Bluff (be the party face)
- Divine spells - no ASF
- Smaller list, but well-rounded, so you won't be paralyzed with choice
- Can blast, buff, and heal equally well even at low levels
- Proficient with a martial weapon (short sword)
- You get an extra spell known at each level (thanks to your domain order)
- No ASF (they cast divine spells - you still lack armor proficiency though)

Their list gets significantly better if you follow Spell Compendium's recommendation of giving them every thematically appropriate spell to choose from as well; but even without that, they are quite playable.

[DragoonWraith]

The Shugenja is very weak and has very little in the way of support; I don't agree with that choice at all. Plus I think being "like the Sorcerer" is bad for a new player.

[gallagher]

I say go for a spellthief 1/duskblade 5/unseen seer 1. Prepare touch attacks, gain flanking, steal spells, hit things. With a second spellthief level you can also steal other peoples buffs

[Keld Denar]

The advantage that the OP has in the case of a sorcerer is that WE can help him plan his spell list. Having a fixed spell list isn't a bad thing when you have a whole forum full of people willing to help him pack that limited list as full of awesome as he can handle without spontaneously exploding from delight.

Lets see....a 7th level sorcerer trying to cover the bases

3rd
Haste
Stinking Cloud

2nd
Glitterdust
Web
Invisibility

1st
Mage Armor
Grease
Benign Transposition (SpC)
Lesser Orb of Acid (SpC)
Ray of Enfeeblement

I can't get to the SRD atm to check sorcerer's spells known, but that should be pretty decent for a 7th level caster. Got most of the bases covered. Fort save, Ref save, Will save, Touch w/ no save, and party buff, even a couple that are SR:No. Most of its even core!

There, a decent list for low thought required spontaneous arcane caster. If he ends up leveling up, he can always come back to us and ask for which 4th level spells he should be interested in (EBT and Enervation), etc.

[DragoonWraith]

Wow, Keld, you got a 7th level Sorcerer's Spells Known exactly right. You only didn't comment on the 8 Cantrips they're supposed to learn, but those aren't really important.

[Keld Denar]

Hmmmm, maybe its time to admit I have a problem...

0th
Sonic Snap
Mending
Light
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Caltrops
Resistance
Prestidigitation

Done and done.

[Optimystik]

The Shugenja is very weak and has very little in the way of support; I don't agree with that choice at all. Plus I think being "like the Sorcerer" is bad for a new player.

It is weak compared to other full casters. I'd still put it at about Tier 3, which is a fine place for a class to end up. Certainly it is ahead of Warmage.

[Lin Bayaseda]

Personally, I don't think Sorcerer is a good idea unless your DM agrees to allow you to retrain spells more often than you can by default (1 every 2 levels is incredibly harsh), just because for someone new to casting, selecting poor spells known sucks. Wizards are "harder" in that preparing spells is a difficult thing to do, but much more forgiving in that you get a new chance to do so every day.

Which is why I added the caveat of shopping for a good spell list on the net before finalizing the character. Keld Denar's list seems pretty solid.

[Vizzerdrix]

the 8 Cantrips they're supposed to learn, but those aren't really important.

:*(

Cantrips need love too!

[Maho-Tsukai]

I vote for a sorcerer or cleric, but espcially the cleric. A sorcerer is a bit easier to play then a wizard but at the same time can be far more unforgiving if you chose the wrong spells. My first Arcanist was a sorcerer and I played him in a manner that was anything but optimal.(He was a "necro sorc" who specalized in blasting people with negative energy and save or die(and not enveration and such. More like finger of death or wail of the banshie kind of save or die.) spells while standing behind an army of undead. He had little battlefield control(Though I think he had evard's black tentacles) and actually had fireball on his spell list....yeah...fireball...I just laugh at myself when I look back at the 3.0 days, when I was just...yeah...I'm still not a great optimizer, though, but I know enough where I realize how bad I was back then.)

However, with the right spells a sorcerer can be a great way to learn spellcasting and my sorcerer, even though he sucked by optimization standards still taught me important lessons, and also how not to play an arcane class.

However, my personal feeling is that the cleric is a great starting caster. Yes, he's a preparitor caster. Yes, he requires a fair bit of thought depending on what sourcebooks you use. However, if you ever want to learn to be a caster, your going to have to learn how to prepair spells and how to micromannage, and sometimes it's best to learn these things sooner then later, and the best way to learn is with a cleric. Why? Simply because clerics are far more forgiving then wizards if you screw up. You have heavy armor and more hit dice then a squishy wizard dose. You have other class abilites that can aid you, and you can spontainously cast heal spells(if good or netural). All of this means that your a lot better off if you mess up or make a mistake then you would be if you where a squishy wizard with d4s for HD with nothing but robes(and spells) to protect him. Your still more fragile then a deidcated melee character would be, but you have heals and all the wonderful divine spells to make up for that. Thus, I really feel that if you want to learn how to be a dedicated caster the best way is as a cleric, since you get to try your hand with preporation but still don't auto die if you mess something up.

Oh, and the fact you prefer poking people with sharp objects means you may like a cleric better then an arcane caster since with the right buffs a cleric can be very, very, very good at smashing people in the face with maces or whatever other simple weapon you like. Thats ALMOST like poking them with a sword.


Also, please ignore any bads grammar or spelling in this post. I am using a computer that lacks word and has no spell check function. Thank you.

[Optimystik]

My problem with clerics is that at lower levels, they feel more like a gish than a true caster. Yes, the d8 and armor are beefy, but if you don't feel like wading in and swinging a mace you probably won't get a lot out of them early on, unless you're fighting undead.

Now a Druid - there's a great mix of blasty and buffy at all levels. Armor isn't an issue since you start at level 6 (Natural Spell, woo) and they lean more towards offensive magic than clerics do at that point in their career. Like their Warcraft counterparts, they're able to fill a wide variety of roles easily.

[Os1ris09]

The advantage that the OP has in the case of a sorcerer is that WE can help him plan his spell list. Having a fixed spell list isn't a bad thing when you have a whole forum full of people willing to help him pack that limited list as full of awesome as he can handle without spontaneously exploding from delight.

I agree with sorcerer as well but honestly. Imo why not just have him play the scordian build? He is obviously comfortable with combat and hitting things and wants to try casting why not let him have this build and see what he thinks.

Here it is man and I personally enjoy it.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...25&postcount=7

[jiriku]

+1 to duskblade or beguiler. Both of these classes are easy to pick and play. Both give you the opportunity to experiment with different spells, and are forgiving if you make the wrong choices (just cast a different spell next time). Both have a strong and enjoyable class theme going on that makes it easy to develop a distinct style.

[Endarire]

DRUIDS are optimized out of the box! You can melee, blast, control crowds, heal, and summon, AND you have a spiffy animal companion who acts as another party member.

Natural Spell is all you need. Improved Initiative, Augment Summoning, Greenbound Summoning (Lost Empires of Faerun), and other Druid Handbook abilities.

WIZARDS are your best bet for arcane magic! If you like the notion of turning people into toads, being invisible, teleporting, summoning, and being fragile yet awesome, snuggle up with Treantmonk and Batman/LogicNinja!

CLERICS are self-contained gishes. A Cleric is potent because he knows EVERY spell he can cast, like a Druid. Clerics are spiffy because they're casters who also melee OR do archery OR desecrate areas and make awesome necromancers.

Trying to be a pure caster as a Cleric will gimp you. I've already tried that. Instead, do something well besides casting. Look at the Cleric's Handbook for advice!

[DragoonWraith]

Personally, I like the Batman guide more than the GOD guide.

[lsfreak]

Personally, I like the Batman guide more than the GOD guide.

I agree with TLN more often, though Treantmonk has very good points about single-target SoD's. Going through the spell list for both of them is very good, whether you're playing a wizard or a sorcerer. Also, a sorcerer handbook, should you choose to go that route. It's not as well-organized/formatted as the two wizard guides, but is good for a look-through as well.