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    Default Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Sin Seer

    Sin Seers are people who have experienced incredible evil, and have chosen to make the eradication of such evil their goal. Sin Seers are rare, and what stories there are show them to be mostly half insane, but no one really fears them, until they have come and gone. Sin Seers have a way of making everyone in a community feel sorrowful about even small cruelties, and their passing tends to leave the community closer knit for it, but they themselves will never find peace or comfort. They know better than anyone what kind of pain they bring upon evil ones, and though they see it as necessary to prevent further pain, as the most empathetic beings on the material pain, they can never stop feeling the pain they deliver.

    Requirements
    Skills: Sense Motive 8 ranks
    Psionics: Able to manifest Forced Share Pain or Hostile Empathic Transfer
    Alignment: Must be neutral on the good-evil axis
    Special: Must have been grievously wronged or watched a loved one be grievously wronged (torture or equivalent cruelty)

    Class Skills
    Skill Points: 4+Int
    Skills:Auto Hypnosis, Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Knowledge, Profession, Sense Motive

    Hit Dice:d4

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Psionics

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Pain Recalled|

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Shelter of Scars|+1 level of existing manifesting class

    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Horror Relived|+1 level of existing manifesting class

    4th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Empathic Shelter|+1 level of existing manifesting class

    5th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Sinner's Empathy|+1 level of existing manifesting class[/table]

    Pain Recalled: The Sin Seer draws power from the pain and horrors he has experienced. Whenever the Sin Seer manifests Forced Share Pain or Hostile Empathic Transfer, he may affect the power with any one metapsionic feat without expending his psionic focus.

    Shelter of Scars: After ample healing time, the wounds a Sin Seer once experienced harden his mind against future assaults. At second level, he becomes immune to fear effects, and gains a 50% immunity to any other mind affecting effects. At level four this improves to complete immunity to all mind affecting effects.

    Horror Relived: At third level, a Sin Seer can force an enemy to experience horrors they have witnessed or experienced. As a standard action, the Sin Seer may affect a number of opponents within line of sight equal to their manifesting ability modifier (Int for psions, Cha for wilders, etc.) This ability can do several things.
    *The Sin Seer can attempt to scare their enemies by showing them what drives them. If the targeted opponents fails a Will save DC equal to 15+Sin Seer's class level+manifesting ability modifier, then he is shaken. If he fails a Will save with DC equal to 13+class level+manifesting ability modifier, he is frightened, and if he fails a Will save with DC equal to 10+class level+manifesting ability modifier, he is panicked. The Sin Seer may choose to allow the target to auto save any of the saves. Evil creatures take -2 to their Will save, while good creatures get +2.
    *The Sin Seer may also cause actual pain to the target by forcing them to actually experience the event. When using this application, the Sin Seer deals an amount of damage equal to their class level times their manifesting ability modifier. The target may make a Will save DC 10+the Sin Seer's manifesting ability modifier for half damage. Evil creatures take -2 to their Will save, while good creatures get +2.
    The use of either effect of this ability is very draining on the Sin Seer, and after using it, he must wait 2d6 rounds before being able to use it again safely. If he uses it before then, he automatically takes half the damage he would normally deal with the second effect. Both effects are mind affecting effects.

    Empathic Shelter: At level 4, the Sin Seer is finally able to protect others from the pain they felt. As a move action each round, the Sin Seer may initiate and maintain an aura of protection. Any creature with 3 or more Int within 30 feet of the Sin Seer may accept this protection and gain immunity to all mind affecting effects that don't originate from the Sin Seer. However, for every round a creature is under the Sin Seer's protection, he gains a cumulative -2 to any will saves against mind affecting effects originating from the Sin Seer. This penalty lasts for 24 hours after the creature leaves the Sin Seer's protection.

    Sinner's Empathy: Once a week as a full round action at level 5, the Sin Seer may force an evil or neutral creature, whom she has line of sight to, to experience the pain they have forced on others. The target makes a Will save, DC 15+half the Sin Seer's character level, or falls into a coma lasting xd4 days, where x is the Sin Seers manifesting ability modifier. Each day of the coma, the creature is forced to make another Will save, same DC, or move one step towards good on the alignment scale. If the target reaches good alignment, he immediately emerges from the coma. Neutral characters gain +5 on all Will saves involved in this ability. Evil characters who become neutral during the coma gain +2, not +5, to all will saves. Any character who emerges from such a coma unchanged gains a +10 against any future attempts, this bonus stacks with itself if gained multiple times. The Sin Seer also takes damage equal to the target's first will save, even if it fails, and takes twice that damage again if they emerge unchanged from the coma.
    Last edited by Jallorn; 2010-11-15 at 10:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    This is a free PrC; it should lose something, because every Psion ever should easily take this just for the free immunities. Also, it doesn't have HD listed.

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    Also, it doesn't have HD listed.
    Or skills.
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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    This is a free PrC; it should lose something, because every Psion ever should easily take this just for the free immunities. Also, it doesn't have HD listed.
    I originally had this slated for a 3/5 casting, I'll change it now, then add HD and skills in a bit.
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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jallorn View Post
    I originally had this slated for a 3/5 casting, I'll change it now, then add HD and skills in a bit.
    And 3/5 casting makes it worthless.

    Just make it require feats, or drop one manifester level.

    EDIT: Sinner's Empathy is absolutely broken, especially because, design wise, it is a very very very very very very very very very... *continues for a few hundred more "very"s* bad idea to actually punish people for being effecitve.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2010-06-18 at 05:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    And 3/5 casting makes it worthless.

    Just make it require feats, or drop one manifester level.

    EDIT: Sinner's Empathy is absolutely broken, especially because, design wise, it is a very very very very very very very very very... *continues for a few hundred more "very"s* bad idea to actually punish people for being effecitve.
    the idea is to punish people for evil, but I'm not really sure how I should do that. Any ideas how to make it not broken?
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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jallorn View Post
    the idea is to punish people for evil, but I'm not really sure how I should do that. Any ideas how to make it not broken?
    Remove it entirely? Just make it simple will save or go into a coma?

    It's basically a "no save, just die" to anybody who deals direct damage.

    Also, this class doesn't seem to have an anti-evil vibe at all... it just seems to have an "I rape minds for fun" vibe, and seems to punish anybody using mind affecting abilities, which aren't inherently evil.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2010-06-18 at 05:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    There, I fixed some stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertier View Post
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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jallorn View Post
    There, I fixed some stuff.
    The last ability is now a bit... mind rapey. Granted, it's good mind rape, but still... blech.

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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    The last ability is now a bit... mind rapey. Granted, it's good mind rape, but still... blech.
    Yeah, that's kind of the point. It's the idea of taking someone horribly evil and forcing them to experience all that evil so they can really understand what people think of them. It's also based on the idea that no one is really truly evil, just deluded.
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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Should really have Psicraft and Knowledge (Psionics) as class skills.
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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    The class skill list as a whole is just awful, really. You should probably just make it match the Telepath skill list. I'd consider 4+Int skills, too, just because Telepaths more than most Psions would be interested in a secondary ability score (Charisma), plus it would be super fitting for a Wilder to enter this class and they typically dumb Int.

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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    The class skill list as a whole is just awful, really. You should probably just make it match the Telepath skill list. I'd consider 4+Int skills, too, just because Telepaths more than most Psions would be interested in a secondary ability score (Charisma), plus it would be super fitting for a Wilder to enter this class and they typically dumb Int.
    I'm not sure if that was a typo or a terrible pun, but either way, shame on you.

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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Hahhaa, oh god, typo, I swear. That's horrible. And amazing. But mostly horrible.

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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Ooh, I'm liking this concept! It makes me think of The Sorrow from Metal Gear Solid 3.

    Personally, I'm not a big fan of Class Level-dependent DCs in 5-level classes, but it's something everyone puts up with I guess. Also, how come there's no Ability Modifier to the Sinner's Empathy DC?

    Empathic Shelter seems pretty overpowered. I'd limit its daily use (maybe 2 rounds/level).
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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    The last ability is now a bit... mind rapey. Granted, it's good mind rape, but still... blech.
    Book of Exalted Deeds, page 106- Sanctify the Wicked. The capstone is essentially the same thing but faster.
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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Is the alignment requirement for True Neutral, or "Neutral on at least one axis"?
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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Book of Exalted Deeds, page 106- Sanctify the Wicked. The capstone is essentially the same thing but faster.
    I know, and I find that spell far from good as well.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2010-06-19 at 08:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Is the alignment requirement for True Neutral, or "Neutral on at least one axis"?
    Neutral on at least one axis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertier View Post
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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    Made it harder to spam the capstone, also made the capstone a little dangerous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertier View Post
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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    I would personally make this class non-good as the alignment requirement. Plenty of non-good classes have punishment of evil and retribution as primary parts of their fluff (Avenging Executioner, Hexblade, Scar Enforcer, etc.) either in the class description or in certain archetypes.

    More later.
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    Default Re: Empathy hurts (3.5 PRC)

    More now!

    This class doesn't seem to treat his friends very well. You're punishing people for being around him, making them his puppets. Not bad, but might rub some people the wrong way.

    All other comments from others stand for the most part though.

    For Shelter of Scars, I'd suggest saying "has a 50% chance of ignoring mind affecting effects that target him (check before rolling save)"
    Feel free to PM me if you want something PEACHed. I may not be one of the greats, but I'll do it if you ask.

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