[3.5ish] Melee fighting while very, very, stupid:

[Brendan]

Animals are good examples of creatures with low intelligence and they fight decently. They don't really notice sublties like who is the caster and how to take it out but can see who has the big sword and who is most dangerous.
Skeletons are good examples of creatures with low charisma and how they fight: no originality, no sense of stopping, healing, self, or tactics (or is that their lack of int?)
And then I don't really know of any creatures with low (1-3) wisdom off the top of my head, and can't really figure their fighting style. definitely no grasp of tactics or planning, but that is dangerously close to the actions of low CHA or INT.
So my question to you all is how you would have an angered monster fight who has extremely low wisdom, and then how a feebleminded creature would fight. This is assuming that the creature even would fight. So how would you do it?

[drengnikrafe]

I would offer that a creature with low wisdom would likely ignore all situational modifiers, and focus only on what he would usually do. A creature like that wouldn't care if the terrain was rocky, plains, entangled, icy, or filled with spheres of anihillation. If they had a good intelligence, they probably made a good plan, but they made it in a vaccum and they're unwilling to alter it, even in the slightest.

[Riffington]

I basically agree with drengnikrafe.
Charisma is not particularly applicable to decision-making, so the issue with skeletons is that with 0 intelligence they literally have no creativity and must follow a program.
Basically, wisdom is good instincts/tradition/programming. A creature with high wisdom and low int can carry out a very practical plan, and in combat makes sound basic tactical moves (always moving to flank, always avoiding attacks of opportunity, always using the most effective attack, etc) without any grasp of strategy (may not properly understand when losing the high ground is worth it; may not know who to target first; may not grasp what effects a spell will have).
A creature with high int and low wisdom lacks all that and must rely on knowledge of tactics. This means they will (as drengnikrafe points out) ignore situational modifiers because they never fully grasped the basics. So they might have a textbook-perfect plan, and when an enemy moves 5' and can now make attacks of opportunity there is no intuitive understanding of how to shift the attack route to avoid that. Afterwards they will grasp the mistake, but may still make it again (or in avoiding it open themselves up to the next mistake).

[DoodlesD]

This tends to make sense. A creature with low Wis would not be able to use its foresight to see flaws within a plan either.

Think of Low Wis creatures in melee as berserker type's who attack relentlessly despite the odds against them. Low WIs creatures may fixate on a single, perhaps even superior, opponent out of dislike or anger from injury. Basically, low wis creatures will always fight to the death because they aren't thinking in the long term.

[Frosty]

I basically agree with drengnikrafe.
Charisma is not particularly applicable to decision-making, so the issue with skeletons is that with 0 intelligence they literally have no creativity and must follow a program.
Basically, wisdom is good instincts/tradition/programming. A creature with high wisdom and low int can carry out a very practical plan, and in combat makes sound basic tactical moves (always moving to flank, always avoiding attacks of opportunity, always using the most effective attack, etc) without any grasp of strategy (may not properly understand when losing the high ground is worth it; may not know who to target first; may not grasp what effects a spell will have).
A creature with high int and low wisdom lacks all that and must rely on knowledge of tactics. This means they will (as drengnikrafe points out) ignore situational modifiers because they never fully grasped the basics. So they might have a textbook-perfect plan, and when an enemy moves 5' and can now make attacks of opportunity there is no intuitive understanding of how to shift the attack route to avoid that. Afterwards they will grasp the mistake, but may still make it again (or in avoiding it open themselves up to the next mistake).

So your average big, dumb Baba/Fighter sucks balls at tactics and on-the-fly adjustments?

[drengnikrafe]

So your average big, dumb Baba/Fighter sucks balls at tactics and on-the-fly adjustments?

Your average big, dumb Fighter is guided into tactics by the other members of the party sometimes (like the rogue who needs the flank), or has a wisdom of higher than 3. I have no problem with a fighter with 6 wisdom being able to make adjustments. I have to question an (insert creature here) who is barely aware of it's surroundings at 1 wisdom doing so.

[lsfreak]

The way I view it:

Low charisma: Lacks good group tactics. Low cha means low sense of self or the relationship between the self and the other. If you find it hard to put yourself in others' positions, you'll lack good group tactics.

Low intelligence: Poor fighter against single opponents. You can't pick out individual weaknesses or adapt as well to the specific fight you're in, but rely on more general knowledge (like 'stab the squishy parts' or 'high ground is good').

Low wisdom: Poor big-picture planning. Little escape plan, poor judgment of good/poor fighting conditions, no ability to retreat and regroup or reinforce allies elsewhere.

[Gorgondantess]

Intelligence helps you make great plans; wisdom helps you see the flaws in that plan. I'd think that a low-charisma foe would be inflexible, just sticking to their regular battle strategy, while a low-wisdom foe would be foolish, with little grasp of power levels- when to fight conservatively, when to go all out, when to flee, etc.; a low-intelligence foe would be blunt, not taking into account "classes" and such, just attack the enemy that's making the most noise or biggest or closest.

[Brendan]

Wisdom effects perception and being in tune with surroundings, so maybe a creature with low wisdom would only attack what is right in front of it and ignore all other threats, like the situational dangers, as mentioned before, but also maybe the other enemies, and only go for one guy.

[Snake-Aes]

Int is problem-solving and planning
Wis is perception and immediate judgment
Cha is interaction

so low-int would not be creative with its tactics. A low-int creature probably only knows a few attacks and keeps to those if they work any better than "not".
A low-wis creature would not differentiate enemies well, probably not realizing that it's the caster that made its muscles heavy. Such a creature would react to the most immediately threatening creature, which is basically whatever hit it the hardest and is within range of its normal abilities. It would also fall victim to any oddity on the battlefield, like a firewall.
Cha doesn't have a reactive use in combat...does it? It is more of a tool for the stuff designed by the previous stats.

[Lascivious]

My take on it is that low int/wis creatures rely more heavily on instincts and experience than those with high stats.

A fighter with 6 int and wis might more than make up for it with 20+ years of fighting experience.

[Snake-Aes]

My take on it is that low int/wis creatures rely more heavily on instincts and experience than those with high stats.

A fighter with 6 int and wis might more than make up for it with 20+ years of fighting experience.

But can he do it better than a fighter with int 14 and wis 14 and the same 20+ years of experience? Especially considering that since int is linked to memory and problem solving, said 20+ years would be worth more combat-savvyness?
I don't think it's a good idea to add "experience" as a factor when comparing stats, it's an unnecessarily layer of complication towards foreseeing what the stats represent in behavior.