Casting spells. How do you rule it?

[Khellendross]

According to raw retrieving a stored item does provoke a AoO. This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door unless it otherwise states so like pulling a weapon out or pulling arrows out to load a bow. Spell components would be a stored item. They are stored in a spell pouch that you'd have to sift through or in several spell pouches to accommodate higher level casters who have more than 4 spells a day.

Now it does say that to cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these materials are elaborate preparing these materials is a free action. For material components and focuses whose costs are not listed, you can assume that you have them if you have your spell component pouch. At this point you have to decide on how specific or general the term preparing is. Preparing could simply mean manipulating the material after already haven drawn then such as pouring wine into a chalice. By that definition you would both incur and AoO from both pulling out the stored items i.e. the material components and another if they didn’t cast defensively. You could also interpret that preparing or manipulating spell components also includes drawing all the materials which in that case you would only incur an AoO from not casting defensively.

It’s all about interoperation. Neither is more right than the other. Actually both ways are right so it comes down to which way your DM deems it. My personal ruling would be pulling out spell components would be under the stored item rules so would incur an AoO. It’s not really a massive hindering to an already huge power source. That 20th level caster is still going to take out that 20th level fighter.

How would you personally rule it?

[HunterOfJello]

Unless the enemy has Combat Reflexes, then it doesn't actually make a difference.

My group only uses 1 AoO for a caster casting a spell with a material component. I think most groups do the same.

[Khellendross]

You're right if they don't have combat reflex's it won't matter but if they do then great. You now get two AoO

[Lycanthromancer]

Except preparing a spell component for use in a spell includes putting it in your hand to make it ready for the spell. That's explicitly a 'no' on AoOs, and it says so on the table here. I really have no idea where the confusion lies.

[JaxGaret]

Except preparing a spell component for use in a spell includes putting it in your hand to make it ready for the spell. That's explicitly a 'no' on AoOs, and it says so on the table here. I really have no idea where the confusion lies.

The confusion lies with DMs attempting to nerf spellcasters any which way they can.

[Anxe]

Some of the ways the spell components are used are strange that they don't provoke extra attacks. Like Protection from Alignment requires silver dust. The caster has to spread the silver dust in a circle around the target. How do you do that without including a move action in the spell as well?

[Lycanthromancer]

The confusion lies with DMs attempting to nerf spellcasters any which way they can.

I'll just stick with psions, then, or find ways to bypass material components completely.

On a completely unrelated note, are there any arrows that don't deal any damage at all?

[JaxGaret]

On a completely unrelated note, are there any arrows that don't deal any damage at all?

There's thundering arrows. They act as thunderstones instead of dealing damage.

[Lycar]

The confusion lies with DMs attempting to nerf spellcasters any which way they can.

Don't forget that in D&D 3.x it is ridiculously hard to disrupt a spellcaster. In AD&D on the other hand, inflicting a single point of damage was enough to make a spell fizzle. And since casting was not instantaneous, people just had to act on an initiative segment between the caster starting to cast and spell completion. No need to ready an attack.

Now casting giving adjacent foes an AoO would be a replacement, if it wasn't so ridiculously easy to avoid those. Never mind that Concentrate checks become non-issues after a certain level (of optimization), you could even forgo Concentrate forever and just 5'-step 'till the cows come home.

Now making preparing fancy components give AoOs doesn't really address the problem of caster impunity. It would just add an extra complication as in 'do I pick the spell with fiddly material components or the other spell, which does the same thing better/just as well/worse without any material component at all?'.

It could be a bit of a balancing factor for spell selection.

If AoOs mattered that is.

Lycar

[faceroll]

Unless the enemy has Combat Reflexes, then it doesn't actually make a difference.

Actually, it makes a huge difference, because the wizard can only defensively cast to protect himself vs. one AoO, and the other will always get through.

[Khellendross]

"Lycanthromancer
Re: Casting spells. How do you rule it?
Except preparing a spell component for use in a spell includes putting it in your hand to make it ready for the spell. That's explicitly a 'no' on AoOs, and it says so on the table here. I really have no idea where the confusion lies. "

Not 100% true. Preparing spell components for use in a spell doesn't include putting it in your hand. That would be mixing wine in a bowl or sprinkling dust or swallowing a pearl etc.

Neither way is more right than the other. It's all how you interpret the meaning of the word prepare here. It's a valid point what your'e saying but so is my way.

[Amphetryon]

"Lycanthromancer
Re: Casting spells. How do you rule it?
Except preparing a spell component for use in a spell includes putting it in your hand to make it ready for the spell. That's explicitly a 'no' on AoOs, and it says so on the table here. I really have no idea where the confusion lies. "

Not 100% true. Preparing spell components for use in a spell doesn't include putting it in your hand. That would be mixing wine in a bowl or sprinkling dust or swallowing a pearl etc.

Neither way is more right than the other. It's all how you interpret the meaning of the word prepare here. It's a valid point what your'e saying but so is my way.

That's.... needlessly pedantic, for my tastes. Just tell spellcasters they're required by the house rules to take Eschew Materials, in that instance.

[mucat]

Not 100% true. Preparing spell components for use in a spell doesn't include putting it in your hand. That would be mixing wine in a bowl or sprinkling dust or swallowing a pearl etc.

No, those acts are all part of actually casting the spell, not preparing the components.

[DragoonWraith]

If the component does not have a cost, then it is negligible and meaningless.

The spell components are a joke. They always have been, and oh good lord, they finally stopped with 4e. They are not intended to have any game effect whatsoever, because that introduces a bookkeeping nightmare that makes the Wizard as-is seem trivial.

This is a terrible way to balance anything. Making spell components in any way important (beyond the 5 gp tax on the spell component pouch, and its implications for grappling/getting imprisoned) doesn't really nerf the wizard, but it does make him supremely unfun.

This is a better idea than most, honestly. I still think it's a bad one, just because it makes people pay attention to which spells have trivial material components, and that's just not worth anyone's time.

Even with this rule, Wizards are still going to be more powerful than most everything and anything. This is not getting to the root of the problem. It's a band-aid on a decapitation.

But regardless, this would be a houserule. Drawing a spell component is a part of casting the spell, so you do not "double dip" and get two AoOs for it. If you want to try the game with that as a houserule, I think you'll find it more trouble than it's worth, but do not pretend that it's RAW.

[Myou]

It's a free action to take components from a spell component pouch, and the action does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Using the components to cast a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity.

There is no conflict here.

[Seffbasilisk]

You cannot provoke two AoOs from the same action.

Casting a spell provokes. Tah dah.


FYI: For the arrows, look up Pungent arrows. No damage, but gives a small bonus on survival checks to track'm.

[Khellendross]

I do agree with you that spell components should be taken out as if everyone has the eschew materials feat but what I read and pointed out is RAW and not wrong. It's a completely legit interpretation of the rules. That preparing would be more mixing the components etc and how I read it makes more sense.

A caster with several bags, which is what he is going to need. to accommodate all those components at higher levels would have to rummage through the bag to feel for which components he needs. Some larger items like a diamond worth 25,000g isn't even going to be in a pouch but in your backpack or some other place that could store a larger item. Pulling out these stored times takes time and actions but preparing them after you've pulled them out is a free action and starts to become part of casting.

I do very well see your points on how it wouldn't be an AoO but I do also see my point as well being just as legit by the rules. It just depends on how general or specific you make a word.

[DragoonWraith]

Material (M)
A material component is one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

Focus (F)
A focus component is a prop of some sort. Unlike a material component, a focus is not consumed when the spell is cast and can be reused. As with material components, the cost for a focus is negligible unless a price is given. Assume that focus components of negligible cost are in your spell component pouch.

Don't even bother to keep track of them, is the rule.

And you do not need multiple spell component pouches. The rules, above, are very clear on this. They're clearly very small, very cheap, very unique Handy Haversacks that endlessly refill.

[Rothen]

I do agree with you that spell components should be taken out as if everyone has the eschew materials feat but what I read and pointed out is RAW and not wrong. It's a completely legit interpretation of the rules. That preparing would be more mixing the components etc and how I read it makes more sense.

v

Except preparing a spell component for use in a spell includes putting it in your hand to make it ready for the spell. That's explicitly a 'no' on AoOs, and it says so on the table here. I really have no idea where the confusion lies.

To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these materials are elaborate preparing these materials is a free action. For material components and focuses whose costs are not listed, you can assume that you have them if you have your spell component pouch.

So any component that does not have a listed cost can be taken from your SC pouch, and that's an action that does not provoke.

[Khellendross]

Material (M)
A material component is one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

Oh cool. I didn't see this part and no one pointed it out till now. I guess it would only really apply to things that do have a cost.

[Kaulesh]

You have to keep your 25,000gp diamonds in your backpack? Where does it say you can't keep spell components in your spell component pouch? It's not a stretch to say that a diamond at that price isn't necessarily super large.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You must have skipped over the entire part of the combat section about casting spells, and just went straight to the part about how spending a move action to retrieve a stored item provokes an AoO:

Cast a Spell

Most spells require 1 standard action to cast. You can cast such a spell either before or after you take a move action.

Note: You retain your Dexterity bonus to AC while casting.
Spell Components

To cast a spell with a verbal (V) component, your character must speak in a firm voice. If you’re gagged or in the area of a silence spell, you can’t cast such a spell. A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell he tries to cast if that spell has a verbal component.

To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must gesture freely with at least one hand. You can’t cast a spell of this type while bound, grappling, or with both your hands full or occupied.

To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these materials are elaborate preparing these materials is a free action. For material components and focuses whose costs are not listed, you can assume that you have them if you have your spell component pouch.

Some spells have an experience point (XP) component and entail an experience point cost to you. No spell can restore the lost XP. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to achieve a new level, immediately spend the XP on casting the spell rather than keeping it to advance a level. The XP are expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds.
Concentration

You must concentrate to cast a spell. If you can’t concentrate you can’t cast a spell. If you start casting a spell but something interferes with your concentration you must make a Concentration check or lose the spell. The check’s DC depends on what is threatening your concentration (see the Concentration skill). If you fail, the spell fizzles with no effect. If you prepare spells, it is lost from preparation. If you cast at will, it counts against your daily limit of spells even though you did not cast it successfully.
Concentrating to Maintain a Spell

Some spells require continued concentration to keep them going. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can keep you from concentrating to maintain a spell. If your concentration breaks, the spell ends.
Casting Time

Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. A spell cast in this manner immediately takes effect.
Attacks of Opportunity

Generally, if you cast a spell, you provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies. If you take damage from an attack of opportunity, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + spell level) or lose the spell. Spells that require only a free action to cast don’t provoke attacks of opportunity.
Casting on the Defensive

Casting a spell while on the defensive does not provoke an attack of opportunity. It does, however, require a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to pull off. Failure means that you lose the spell.
Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks

Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge

If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Dismiss a Spell

Dismissing an active spell is a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

As for your word ambiguity argument:

pre·pare (prĭ-pâr')
v. pre·pared , pre·par·ing , pre·pares

v. tr.

1. To make ready beforehand for a specific purpose, as for an event or occasion: The teacher prepared the students for the exams.
2. To put together or make by combining various elements or ingredients; manufacture or compound: prepared a meal; prepared the lecture.
3. To fit out; equip: prepared the ship for an arctic expedition.
4. Music To lead up to and soften (a dissonance or its impact) by means of preparation.

v. intr.

1. To make things or oneself ready.
2. To study or complete a course of study at a preparatory school.

Preparing material components to cast a spell would be akin to preparing a meal: the act of retrieving and combining various elements and ingredients, the entirety of which is a free action which does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Edit: This would include preparing costly components that are kept in your spell component pouch as well.

[Lycanthromancer]

Material (M)
A material component is one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

Oh cool. I didn't see this part and no one pointed it out till now. I guess it would only really apply to things that do have a cost.

I showed you that myself.

[Khellendross]

I did read that part and I you aren't pointing out anything extra.

Also when you prepare a meal you have to get everything out first then PREPARE it lol. If anything you proved my point.

[Lycanthromancer]

I did read that part and I you aren't pointing out anything extra.

I pointed that part out specifically. Like 6 times. Oh well.

Also when you prepare a meal you have to get everything out first then PREPARE it lol. If anything you proved my point.

Pulling out ingredients is part of preparing a meal. You can't cook the angel hair if it's still up in the cabinet, after all.

[Khellendross]

Yes and pulling out that angel hair pasta would provoke that AoO :-)

[Lycanthromancer]

Yes and pulling out that angel hair pasta would provoke that AoO :-)

Except the book specifically says not?

[Khellendross]

Lycanthromancer~You have to have actually pointed out something 6 times to claim you did. You never once pointed out that spell components with no cost are negligible.

[Khellendross]

"Except the book specifically says not?"

Not true. I've pointed out how it can that I'm right. I'm neither right nor wrong just like you aren't. You can view it either way and be right. IT just comes down to what the DM decides and he wouldn't be wrong.

[Lycanthromancer]

"Except the book specifically says not?"

Not true. I've pointed out how it can that I'm right. I'm neither right nor wrong just like you aren't. You can view it either way and be right. IT just comes down to what the DM decides and he wouldn't be wrong.

Lycanthromancer~You have to have actually pointed out something 6 times to claim you did. You never once pointed out that spell components with no cost are negligible.

Uh huh. Right.