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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    There's many discussions, suggestions, and hombrews to bring our favorite weak classes up to usable or less boring tiers.

    But what about shooting them up to the ultimate level but keeping them in the spirit of the class.
    How do you get a guy with some armor, a sword, and years of combat training to handle anything?
    What would we have to do?

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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    You could improve hit points, saves, base attack bonus and weapon damage to ungodly levels and add some immunities against enchantment and necromancy.
    Hitting people with a sword is still devestating if they have no way to keep you from doing it.
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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    Warmarked was/is an attempt to bring non-casters to tier 1.

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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    The problem is that no matter WHAT sort of equipment a fighter gets, he will only JUST catch up to a "normal" wizard in terms of variety. Maybe more "epic" sorts of abilities normally reserved for prestige classes for any class that doesn't get magic would help.

    Example, give a rogue all the abilities of a shadow dancer, at double the level the Shadowdancer normally gets them. They would get Hide in Plain Sight at level 2, which by itself would greatly improve rogues, then they get other nifty things like shadow jump and such.

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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Warmarked was/is an attempt to bring non-casters to tier 1.
    Tier 2, actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orzel View Post
    There's many discussions, suggestions, and hombrews to bring our favorite weak classes up to usable or less boring tiers.

    But what about shooting them up to the ultimate level but keeping them in the spirit of the class.
    How do you get a guy with some armor, a sword, and years of combat training to handle anything?
    What would we have to do?
    Easy answer? Put them against challenges that are lower than their level. Any class looks like a superhero when the campaign just involves mopping up low-level mooks. Yes, even Truenamer. (A Level 10 Truenamer, in a campaign setting where mighty heroes are Level 3 and elite soldiers are Level 1, is a terrifying dark lord. And yes, there are some works of fantasy that basically look like this.)

    Frankly, I think that's a lot of how the game designers expected the game to be run. Even ignoring the Truenamer, a lot of game balance just works much better if your Level 14 characters are still facing hordes of CR 1 Orcs for most of their encounters.
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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Frankly, I think that's a lot of how the game designers expected the game to be run. Even ignoring the Truenamer, a lot of game balance just works much better if your Level 14 characters are still facing hordes of CR 1 Orcs for most of their encounters.
    Then again, for Level 14 characters, CR 1 opponents are too easy, regardless of which "tier" they might occupy.
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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    Heh, an unoptimized True Namer probably can hit the DC.

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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    I was thinking.
    What if favored enemy/terrain increased by 4; affected all skills; worked on items, obects, and classes; and rangers got 3 of them on every level

    Could a ranger eventually deal with any problem?
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Then again, for Level 14 characters, CR 1 opponents are too easy, regardless of which "tier" they might occupy.
    Yeah, that's why people don't actually run games that way. But I still think that's pretty much what the game's designers had in mind for higher levels (subconsciously).

    Although, honestly, Level 14 characters versus literally hundreds of CR 1 opponents could actually still be an interesting encounter (assuming the Wizard and Druid didn't prepare the specific spells that can end the encounter instantly). It's just too much of a bookkeeping nightmare (and would go waaaay too slowly) for people to actually run.
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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Yeah, that's why people don't actually run games that way. But I still think that's pretty much what the game's designers had in mind for higher levels (subconsciously).
    See also: Minions in 4e.
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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Yeah, that's why people don't actually run games that way. But I still think that's pretty much what the game's designers had in mind for higher levels (subconsciously).

    Although, honestly, Level 14 characters versus literally hundreds of CR 1 opponents could actually still be an interesting encounter (assuming the Wizard and Druid didn't prepare the specific spells that can end the encounter instantly). It's just too much of a bookkeeping nightmare (and would go waaaay too slowly) for people to actually run.
    Possibly, yeah. I've never been very fond of the "PCs fight entire armies by themselves" theme myself.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    Quote Originally Posted by Orzel View Post
    I was thinking.
    What if favored enemy/terrain increased by 4; affected all skills; worked on items, obects, and classes; and rangers got 3 of them on every level

    Could a ranger eventually deal with any problem?
    Not really. (I'm not sure what you mean by "items, objects, and classes," though.) The huge skill boosts would be interesting and useful, but it won't get them out of a Forcecage, to pick the easiest example off the top of my head.
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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    Barbarian => Druid
    Bard => Wizard
    Fighter => Cleric
    Monk => Cloistered Cleric
    Paladin => Cleric
    Ranger => Druid
    Rogue => Cleric???
    Sorcerers => Wizard

    You would need some MAJOR revisions to get Fighters and Monks, or even good classes like Warblades and Factoriums, up to Tier 1. Remember that Tier 1 not only has the power to deal with any situation they are prepared for, but also the capability to adapt themselves to any situation. Every Tier 1 character can either virtually rebuild their character at the start of every day (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist) or simply has all their class features available at all times (Artificer, Erudite).

    Tier 2 might be a little more reasonable, as you just need to give everybody reality-changing options, not necessarily the capability to swap them out at choice. The Psion, Sorcerer, and spontaneous Cleric are considered very good "powerful" choices that can still be challanged by specific situations, after all.

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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    Not really. (I'm not sure what you mean by "items, objects, and classes," though.) The huge skill boosts would be interesting and useful, but it won't get them out of a Forcecage, to pick the easiest example off the top of my head.
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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    You could probably get away with giving them spell equivalents fluffed to martial capability. For Tier 2, make them set, for Tier 1, let them swap them around.

    Extending on the White Raven theme, leadership could cover healing (especially fun when they start ordering your spirit back into your body). It can also do buffs, compulsions, and hey, why not give them Miracle come 17th (ordering the gods around!)

    Superhuman attributes can cover a number of things. Speed for teleportation, strength for various obstacle-removing spells, etc. Speed also gives you opportunity for area attacks (moving foe to foe or flurry of arrows).

    Skills, taken to superhuman extremes, cover a lot. As with the epic skills, but made easier and extended. Balance on air to fly. Escape Artist through walls of force. Gather Information or Knowledge for divinations. Diplomacy and Intimidate for another option at compulsions. Bluff so well you trick the target into perceiving what you say is there (illusions).

    Finish it off with raw combat skill. Attacks causing status effects is a common enough ability; combine with super-speed area attacks to get the multi-target save-or-lose powers of a wizard. Expand on attacks of opportunity to emulate persistent area effects (Blade Barrier? Yeah, I run back and forth slashing everyone who tries to get past). Parry their rays and deflect them back for spell turning. Plenty of immunizing spells can be from sheer willpower or toughness. Dispel magic by flat-out denying it. And so on.

    The easiest way would be to just provide spellcasting of some sort, refluffed. If you wanted to be more elaborate, you could create a full system for it that emphasizes the differences (a warrior's status effects would always cause damage as well, its zones must be centered on it but move with it, has to be able to physically reach all foes targeted with an area attack unless using a ranged weapon, etc). If you're willing to go far enough, I'd bet there are very few mechanical effects that can't work just as well through superhuman physical and martial prowess as magic, things that explicitly require affecting other dimension aside (well, unless you want to go the "I cut a hole in reality with my sword" route, but then it starts to really look like magic).
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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    I think the material in the Frank & K tomes does that pretty well. Their base barbarians and fighters are way stronger than those in the PHB. But if you then start to optimize those, you have trouble again...

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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    If some of the base classes were written a little better or had some extra stuff added, some of them could easily get into Tier 2, but likely none could make it to Tier 1. Duskblade, Factotum and the ToB classes for instance. And if the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and Warmage were given more extensive spell lists (and the Warmage given some more capabilities besides "blasting while wearing light armour"), they could come to stand side-by-side with the Sorcerer. Paladins, Rangers and Knights I could see being brought up one tier, but not up to Tier 2 without making them highly different, like including ToB stuff (making Paladins and Rangers capable of casting up to 6th-level spells wouldn't be a huge change; Knights could be made to not have such a strict code and get some boost to their existing abilities, get them earlier, etc). Warlock and Dragonfire Adept could do with more variety in invocations and getting more of them to bump them up. Bard, Marshal and Dragon Shaman could potentially be merged together, which would likely have them rival Tier 1 classes in terms of buffing (Polymorph rape-age excluded).
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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    a good way of balancing the classes is not actually making fighters tier 1, but instead keeping the casters around tier 3. it keeps the party strong and has everyone involved instead of one person shining at a time and everyone competes for a little light
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    Default Re: Extreme Tier Elevation [3.5 ]

    I've always liked gestalt rules splashed in for low tier characters. A Fighter//Monk can be good next to a Wizard.

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