Need help with Fire based class

[Viktre]

Ok here's the plan. Looking for the best optimization of class(s), bloodlines, and whatever else for use with a fire based character. Breath weapons a plus, but not mandatory, and Gestalt characters are allowed. The biggest problem is that the campaign only goes to 12th level, but it does start at 5th level. I've looked in several directions, but haven't found a really good setup. So to sum up: Best optimization of a character using fire (whether in spells, spell-like abilities, etc.) Thanks

[gbprime]

Have you checked out Dragonfire Adept from Dragon Magic? It's a fire-breath-weapon based warlock.

[PId6]

Have you checked out Dragonfire Adept from Dragon Magic? It's a fire-breath-weapon based warlock.

I second this, with a link to the handbook for good measure.

Basically, as long as you take Entangling Exhalation (RotD), you can easily build an effective DFA.

[Viktre]

Yeah that was the way that I initially went, but I was looking for the benefit of maybe adding fire-based spells and/or spell-like abilities. That and I was hoping for the possibility of spells with a quicker cast time w/o using metamagic.

*Forgot to add that my original character was a gestalt of DFA//Rogue 2/DFA//Dragon Shaman 3

[PId6]

Yeah that was the way that I initially went, but I was looking for the benefit of maybe adding fire-based spells and/or spell-like abilities. That and I was hoping for the possibility of spells with a quicker cast time w/o using metamagic.

Sorcerer works fine if you pick a themed list (though avoid too many Fireball-clones clogging the list). Take Searing Spell and start casting Searing Orbs of Fire. Sand Shaper is a good Sorcerer PrC, and is pretty thematic too.

There are lots of swift action spells in Spell Compendium, but few of them have anything to do with fire. If you want those, you'll have to use Quicken Spell or similar (Arcane Spellsurge works), or you're out of luck.

[Viktre]

Ok those are great points and a great idea too. You actually are confirming the remake idea I had for the character as a DFA//Sorc 5. My question is why not have more of the fireball-like spells, just out of curiosity. Metamagic wasn't completely out I just wanted to see how far I could get w/o it heh. Btw where can I find Sand Shaper?

[PId6]

Ok those are great points and a great idea too. You actually are confirming the remake idea I had for the character as a DFA//Sorc 5. My question is why not have more of the fireball-like spells, just out of curiosity. Metamagic wasn't completely out I just wanted to see how far I could get w/o it heh. Btw where can I find Sand Shaper?

Sandshaper is in It's Hot Outside (also known as Sandstorm).

Since Sorcerers have such limited lists, you want to try to get as much versatility as you can out of it. If you take too many spells that do the same thing, you're going to end up as a one-trick pony. You want enough damage spells that you can do your primary job effectively, and enough support and utility spells that you aren't useless if your primary function isn't needed.

For example, for damage spells, you might have a few options like these:

2nd Level: Combust
3rd Level: Fireball
4th Level: Orb of Fire

And that should be enough. You can apply metamagic to these spells to make them more powerful, but these are enough to cover the basic variations of target, area, and touch. The rest of your spells known should be used to expand your versatility; spells like Fly, Haste, Slow, Glitterdust, etc are all very helpful for that. Even if you want to stay with the fire theme, spells like Fire Shield, Fire Wall, Incendiary Cloud, and Fire Stride (SpC) are better than just more Fireball clones.

[Jokasti]

I would go with a Fire Aspected Terrestrial, master of Fire Dragon Style and Golden Janissary Style.

[The Rose Dragon]

I would go with a Fire Aspected Terrestrial, master of Fire Dragon Style and Golden Janissary Style.

That's not a class. That's not even D&D.

Did you try playing a Firebender? I'm pretty sure there are several homebrew classes for one if homebrew is allowed.

[PId6]

I would go with a Fire Aspected Terrestrial, master of Fire Dragon Style and Golden Janissary Style.

I think the context made the system abundantly clear here.

[Viktre]

And that should be enough. You can apply metamagic to these spells to make them more powerful, but these are enough to cover the basic variations of target, area, and touch. The rest of your spells known should be used to expand your versatility; spells like Fly, Haste, Slow, Glitterdust, etc are all very helpful for that. Even if you want to stay with the fire theme, spells like Fire Shield, Fire Wall, Incendiary Cloud, and Fire Stride (SpC) are better than just more Fireball clones.

Good idea and the spells you pointed out are a plus. And homebrew isn't going to work with the DM I've got as only the books that he has (which are extensive) minus a few selected are available, but not homebrew. I wish they were as there are several on another site that I really liked. And I had hoped the content would make clear that I'm using 3.5 D&D, but thank you for the try.

[Jokasti]

That's not a class. That's not even D&D.

Did you try playing a Firebender? I'm pretty sure there are several homebrew classes for one if homebrew is allowed.

He didn't specify

[mabriss lethe]

swordsage/sorcerer/ Jade Phoenix Mage?

While not terribly optimal, swordsage has access to a great number of fire based attacks via Desert Wind style. sorcerer and JPM fleshing it out can beef it up quite a bit.

[Force]

Swordsage with a focus on Desert Wind maneuvers?

Edit: </3 ninjas

[Viktre]

swordsage/sorcerer/ Jade Phoenix Mage?

While not terribly optimal, swordsage has access to a great number of fire based attacks via Desert Wind style. sorcerer and JPM fleshing it out can beef it up quite a bit.

Now that was an idea I hadn't thought of. We have another gestalted swordsage, but he is playing Shadow Hand style so they wouldn't overlap. That and I do like the special ability that JPM has where they self-destruct and then reform.

[mabriss lethe]

Ah, you're gestalting. You'd probably want to consult your DM before taking a dual progression PrC to see how he wants to handle that.

Hmm, it could go SS/JPM//Sorc/JPM (with JPM taking both sides of the gestalt
or if the DM is generous it could go SS/JPM//Sorc/Other base class unrelated to SS or Sorc so that it doesn't muddy up the gestalt with multiple classes feeding into caster/initiator progression. It's been a while since I looked at gestalt rules, but if I remember correctly all the stuff dealing with dual prog PrCs are worded as suggestions (and gestalt rules predate a lot of the dual prog prcs that have snazzy abilities other than merely progressing two classes at once.)

[Viktre]

Ah, you're gestalting. You'd probably want to consult your DM before taking a dual progression PrC to see how he wants to handle that.

Hmm, it could go SS/JPM//Sorc/JPM (with JPM taking both sides of the gestalt
or if the DM is generous it could go SS/JPM//Sorc/Other base class unrelated to SS or Sorc so that it doesn't muddy up the gestalt with multiple classes feeding into caster/initiator progression. It's been a while since I looked at gestalt rules, but if I remember correctly all the stuff dealing with dual prog PrCs are worded as suggestions (and gestalt rules predate a lot of the dual prog prcs that have snazzy abilities other than merely progressing two classes at once.)

I don't think it would really be a dual progression PrC as I'm only adding it to one side of the gestalt. It would end up being SS//Sorc then JPM. I mean that's how I'm looking at it at least. Thoughts?

[PId6]

There's no real need for Jade Phoenix Mage; you can just gestalt Desert Wind Swordsage//Sorcerer. This avoids the dual progression PrC issues in gestalt, and you're not going to reach the JPM capstone anyway if the campaign's only going until 12th level.

Try this:

Sorcerer 5/Sand Shaper 7//Swordsage 5/Sorcerer +1/Swordsage +6

The Sorcerer level in the middle of the Swordsage side is to make up for the caster level loss of Sand Shaper. Try to get Unarmed Swordsage if possible, so you can get Wis to AC while unarmored. Pick Greater Mage Armor as a spell known and you won't have to use armor to make your AC very high.

The alternative, but cheesier route, is to get Charisma to everything using the other side of the gestalt. Paladin 2 (of any variety) gets you Cha to saves. Battle Dancer 1 (Dragon Compendium) gets you Cha to AC while unarmored. Monk 1 (along with a Ascetic Mage feat from Complete Scoundrel) gets you Cha to AC again. Hexblade 2 gets you Cha to saves against arcane spells. And such.

[Viktre]

There's no real need for Jade Phoenix Mage; you can just gestalt Desert Wind Swordsage//Sorcerer. This avoids the dual progression PrC issues in gestalt, and you're not going to reach the JPM capstone anyway if the campaign's only going until 12th level.

Try this:

Sorcerer 5/Sand Shaper 7//Swordsage 5/Sorcerer +1/Swordsage +6

The Sorcerer level in the middle of the Swordsage side is to make up for the caster level loss of Sand Shaper. Try to get Unarmed Swordsage if possible, so you can get Wis to AC while unarmored. Pick Greater Mage Armor as a spell known and you won't have to use armor to make your AC very high.

The alternative, but cheesier route, is to get Charisma to everything using the other side of the gestalt. Paladin 2 (of any variety) gets you Cha to saves. Battle Dancer 1 (Dragon Compendium) gets you Cha to AC while unarmored. Monk 1 (along with a Ascetic Mage feat from Complete Scoundrel) gets you Cha to AC again. Hexblade 2 gets you Cha to saves against arcane spells. And such.

Actually I'm confused on the first idea, how many levels does that end up being and how are the classes combined? And for the second idea you're saying go with Sorc//Paladin 2, Sorc//BD 1, Sorc//Monk 1

[PId6]

Actually I'm confused on the first idea, how many levels does that end up being and how are the classes combined? And for the second idea you're saying go with Sorc//Paladin 2, Sorc//BD 1, Sorc//Monk 1

The first one is 12 levels long. One side of the gestalt is Sorcerer 5/Sand Shaper 7. The other side is Swordsage 5, multiclassing into one level of Sorcerer, and then finish up with 6 levels of Swordsage.

Second idea:

Sorcerer 5/Sand Shaper 7 for one side.
Paladin 2/Monk 1/Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 1/Battle Dancer 1/Whatever 5

The first idea probably makes the most sense though.

[Viktre]

The first one is 12 levels long. One side of the gestalt is Sorcerer 5/Sand Shaper 7. The other side is Swordsage 5, multiclassing into one level of Sorcerer, and then finish up with 6 levels of Swordsage.

Second idea:

Sorcerer 5/Sand Shaper 7 for one side.
Paladin 2/Monk 1/Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 1/Battle Dancer 1/Whatever 5

The first idea probably makes the most sense though.

Yeah it seems to, but why not just gestalt Sorc/Sand Shaper together for 6 levels, then go Swordsage for 6 levels. Maybe even gestalting the Swordsage with something beneficial. After all the camp ends at level 12 and I'm not sure how you're gestalting the Sorc for 5 levels and the Sand Shaper for 7. Don't you have to have equal levels on the gestalt? Its combining the best of both worlds for that number of levels. If you could explain that to me I would be grateful.

[PId6]

Yeah it seems to, but why not just gestalt Sorc/Sand Shaper together for 6 levels, then go Swordsage for 6 levels. Maybe even gestalting the Swordsage with something beneficial. After all the camp ends at level 12 and I'm not sure how you're gestalting the Sorc for 5 levels and the Sand Shaper for 7. Don't you have to have equal levels on the gestalt? Its combining the best of both worlds for that number of levels. If you could explain that to me I would be grateful.

Oh, I think we have some notation confusion here:

/ - single slash means multiclass
// - double slash means gestalt

So basically, Sorcerer 5/Sand Shaper 7//Swordsage 5/Sorcerer +1/Swordsage +6 means this:

Level 1: Sorcerer//Swordsage
Level 2: Sorcerer//Swordsage
Level 3: Sorcerer//Swordsage
Level 4: Sorcerer//Swordsage
Level 5: Sorcerer//Swordsage
Level 6: Sand Shaper//Sorcerer
Level 7: Sand Shaper//Swordsage
Level 8: Sand Shaper//Swordsage
Level 9: Sand Shaper//Swordsage
Level 10: Sand Shaper//Swordsage
Level 11: Sand Shaper//Swordsage
Level 12: Sand Shaper//Swordsage

Does that clear up the confusion?

[Viktre]

Oh, I think we have some notation confusion here:

/ - single slash means multiclass
// - double slash means gestalt

So basically, Sorcerer 5/Sand Shaper 7//Swordsage 5/Sorcerer +1/Swordsage +6 means this:

Level 1: Sorcerer//Swordsage
Level 2: Sorcerer//Swordsage
Level 3: Sorcerer//Swordsage
Level 4: Sorcerer//Swordsage
Level 5: Sorcerer//Swordsage
Level 6: Sand Shaper//Sorcerer
Level 7: Sand Shaper//Swordsage
Level 8: Sand Shaper//Swordsage
Level 9: Sand Shaper//Swordsage
Level 10: Sand Shaper//Swordsage
Level 11: Sand Shaper//Swordsage
Level 12: Sand Shaper//Swordsage

Does that clear up the confusion?

Completely and thank you. That progression I like too. It gives me the ability to use the spells via Sorcerer and the manuevers from the Swordsage. My question is though if I wanted to keep the breath weapon from DFA couldn't I sacrifice some of those levels of Swordsage and it still be a pretty potent character? Esp in the area of Fire dmg?

[PId6]

My question is though if I wanted to keep the breath weapon from DFA couldn't I sacrifice some of those levels of Swordsage and it still be a pretty potent character? Esp in the area of Fire dmg?

Problem is, you're going to need near-full levels in DFA for the damage to be competitive. That means sacrificing all of the Swordsage levels. Otherwise the breath weapon damage just isn't going to keep up. Sorcerer is going to have more than enough blasting power that you shouldn't need the breath weapon anyway.

If you do want a breath weapon, you can get a good one from the Dragonborn of Bahamut template from Races of the Dragon. It scales by 1d8 + 1d8 per 3 levels, without having to spend any class levels for it. Alternatively, you can use Swordsage maneuvers like Hatchling's Flame and Dragon's Flame for the same effect. Still, you have enough Sorcerer spell slots that you don't really need more help dealing fire damage.

[Viktre]

Problem is, you're going to need near-full levels in DFA for the damage to be competitive. That means sacrificing all of the Swordsage levels. Otherwise the breath weapon damage just isn't going to keep up. Sorcerer is going to have more than enough blasting power that you shouldn't need the breath weapon anyway.

If you do want a breath weapon, you can get a good one from the Dragonborn of Bahamut template from Races of the Dragon. It scales by 1d8 + 1d8 per 3 levels, without having to spend any class levels for it. Alternatively, you can use Swordsage maneuvers like Hatchling's Flame and Dragon's Flame for the same effect. Still, you have enough Sorcerer spell slots that you don't really need more help dealing fire damage.

True and I could always go with the Dragon Breath feat from RotD which gives 2d6 dmg per level of the spell you sacrificed for it. And that works well with the Sorcerer levels. Heck if I wanted overkill I could go with both. The Dragon Breath simply requires a Dragon Heritage and if I go with Pyroclastic that would help anyway.

[PId6]

If you're taking Dragon Breath, be dragonblooded and take the Sorcerer 1 Dragonblood substitution level, which trades your familiar for Dragon Heritage, some minor benefits, and Use Magic Device as a class skill for that level.

[Viktre]

If you're taking Dragon Breath, be dragonblooded and take the Sorcerer 1 Dragonblood substitution level, which trades your familiar for Dragon Heritage, some minor benefits, and Use Magic Device as a class skill for that level.

Ok that makes sense, but where can I find dragonblooded, is it a template, and where do I find the Dragonblood sub lvl?

[PId6]

Ok that makes sense, but where can I find dragonblooded, is it a template, and where do I find the Dragonblood sub lvl?

The sub level is in Races of the Dragon.

Dragonblooded is a subtype, found on various races. Dragonborn, Spellscale, and Kobolds (all from Races of the Dragon) have the dragonblooded subtype. Other races with the subtype, like Silverbrow Human, Fireblood Dwarves, and Forestlord Elves (all found in Dragon Magic) are just variants of the core races.

[Viktre]

The sub level is in Races of the Dragon.

Dragonblooded is a subtype, found on various races. Dragonborn, Spellscale, and Kobolds (all from Races of the Dragon) have the dragonblooded subtype. Other races with the subtype, like Silverbrow Human, Fireblood Dwarves, and Forestlord Elves (all found in Dragon Magic) are just variants of the core races.

Ironic that you would mention the Forestlord Elves because that's what I was using in my first edition. So that already qualifies me for the feat, at least when I do the sub.

[Jokasti]

Ok that makes sense, but where can I find dragonblooded, is it a template, and where do I find the Dragonblood sub lvl?

Manual of Exalted Power: Dragon-Blooded