[3.5] Soul Knife questions

[Hague]

Okay, a pair of 'em:

If a Soul Knife has a Psychic Strike (say 2d8) charged and ready to go and she performs a Bladewind attack, does the Psychic Strike apply to all creatures targeted by the Bladewind or just one target? The description says that it applies to the "first melee attack" but since the Bladewind applies "a melee attack to all enemies within reach" then which one is the first or are all of them the first attack and therefore benefit from the extra damage? (and possibly Knife to the Soul)

Also, when a Mind Blade is lost, say to being 'dropped' and it dissipates or is destroyed in a sundering attempt (for whatever reason) does that mean that another blade produced is counted as a separate weapon? What I'm getting at is that the Lucky Mind Blade enhancement allows for a reroll on an attack roll with the Mind Blade once per day. However, if the Mind Blade is considered a new weapon, then would it have another use of the reroll? Potentially you could have one reroll every round (since you can only form the blade once per round) by dropping the Mind Blade and forming a new one as a free action (or move action at early levels)

[AslanCross]

The soulknife is so bad that I'm tempted to say yes to both of your questions, since they don't really break it.

[Snake-Aes]

Okay, a pair of 'em:

If a Soul Knife has a Psychic Strike (say 2d8) charged and ready to go and she performs a Bladewind attack, does the Psychic Strike apply to all creatures targeted by the Bladewind or just one target? The description says that it applies to the "first melee attack" but since the Bladewind applies "a melee attack to all enemies within reach" then which one is the first or are all of them the first attack and therefore benefit from the extra damage? (and possibly Knife to the Soul)

Also, when a Mind Blade is lost, say to being 'dropped' and it dissipates or is destroyed in a sundering attempt (for whatever reason) does that mean that another blade produced is counted as a separate weapon? What I'm getting at is that the Lucky Mind Blade enhancement allows for a reroll on an attack roll with the Mind Blade once per day. However, if the Mind Blade is considered a new weapon, then would it have another use of the reroll? Potentially you could have one reroll every round (since you can only form the blade once per round) by dropping the Mind Blade and forming a new one as a free action (or move action at early levels)

On the first: Psychic strike is precision damage. Abilities that give you multiple attacks in one roll, like manyshot, only apply precision damage to one of them. Just pick one.
On the second: It'd probably go against the intention of the enhancement to let you "recharge" it by reforming the blade.

So, no to both. And if you want to play a soul knife, a psychic warrior with metaphysical claw is better at that.

[tyckspoon]

On the first: Psychic strike is precision damage. Abilities that give you multiple attacks in one roll, like manyshot, only apply precision damage to one of them. Just pick one.

(Unlike the rogue’s sneak attack, the psychic strike is not precision damage and can affect creatures otherwise immune to extra damage from critical hits or more than 30 feet away, provided they are living, nonmindless creatures not immune to mind-affecting effects.)

Whut.

Bladewind specifies that the mindblade fragments operate as per the normal mindblade. The rules are not specific, but I would read that as meaning that if the normal mindblade is charged with a Psychic Strike and would successfully discharge it on one target, than the Bladewind attack, if charge with a Psychic Strike, will discharge it on all qualifying targets as well.

[Hague]

No, the Psychic Strike is NOT precision damage. It says clearly that it doesn't require the target to be flanked or denied dex and can be targeted at over 30 ft in range.

Psychic Strike (Su)

As a move action, a soulknife of 3rd level or higher can imbue his mind blade with destructive psychic energy. This effect deals an extra 1d8 points of damage to the next living, nonmindless target he successfully hits with a melee attack (or ranged attack, if he is using the throw mind blade ability). Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to psychic strike damage. (Unlike the rogue’s sneak attack, the psychic strike is not precision damage and can affect creatures otherwise immune to extra damage from critical hits or more than 30 feet away, provided they are living, nonmindless creatures not immune to mind-affecting effects.)

Edit: Ninja'd :P

And we are going by wording, not intent. If we went by intent then wish-loops wouldn't work, would they?

Assuming that it does work, then an Enlarged Soulknife could use Knife to the Soul on a group of Animals with 2d8 of his Psychic Strike damage to turn them into vegetables by targeting intelligence... hrm...

[PId6]

Also, when a Mind Blade is lost, say to being 'dropped' and it dissipates or is destroyed in a sundering attempt (for whatever reason) does that mean that another blade produced is counted as a separate weapon?

Yes, you're making a completely new mind blade, so things like Lucky would "reset" as well.

That's what makes the Soulbow's Mind Arrows so hilarious.

[Hague]

Here's another one, what happens if I have the effect of True Strike when I make a Bladewind attack?

[PId6]

Here's another one, what happens if I have the effect of True Strike when I make a Bladewind attack?

It will affect the first attack you make during that Bladewind. You get to choose what order you attack them, so you choose which one the True Strike will apply to.

[Nidogg]

True strike only counts on your next attack roll, unless the bladewind uses one attackroll for all opponents then true strike will only aply to one.
EDIt Ninja'd

[true_shinken]

In my game, I had two soulknife players; only one of them actually got Bladewind. I allowed her to apply psychic strike damage to all attacks.

[Snake-Aes]

Oopsie ...

[Foryn Gilnith]

No, the Psychic Strike is NOT precision damage. It says clearly that it doesn't require the target to be flanked or denied dex and can be targeted at over 30 ft in range.

That is not a necessary condition for damage being counted as precision damage (see: Skirmish), nor is it a sufficient condition (see: Hit and Run Fighter ACF from DotU, IIRC).

[true_shinken]

That is not a necessary condition for damage being counted as precision damage (see: Skirmish), nor is it a sufficient condition (see: Hit and Run Fighter ACF from DotU, IIRC).

I think when the class description says 'this is not precision damage', well, it is probably not precision damage...

[Snake-Aes]

I think when the class description says 'this is not precision damage', well, it is probably not precision damage...

Yeah but if you want to be pedantic, precision damage is completely separate from the conditions that cause it. Skirmish and Sneak attack are both precision and rely on absolutely different conditions.

[true_shinken]

Yeah but if you want to be pedantic, precision damage is completely separate from the conditions that cause it. Skirmish and Sneak attack are both precision and rely on absolutely different conditions.

That's pretty obvious. Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike, Sneak Attack and Skirmish all have different conditions to trigger.
I only said psychic strike is not precision because it clearly says so in the description.

[Snake-Aes]

That's pretty obvious. Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike, Sneak Attack and Skirmish all have different conditions to trigger.
I only said psychic strike is not precision because it clearly says so in the description.

Look at your previous post. Your wording implies you thought "precision damage" means "flank". Otherwise your reply just doesn't add anything to what you quoted.

[true_shinken]

Look at your previous post. Your wording implies you thought "precision damage" means "flank". Otherwise your reply just doesn't add anything to what you quoted.

You're just reading what is not there. I simply said it's not precision damage. Anyway, I tire of this.

[Snake-Aes]

You're just reading what is not there. I simply said it's not precision damage. Anyway, I tire of this.

which has nothing to do with what you quoted when you said that.

But, as you say, we're just being pedantic.

[Zombieboots]

So when I DM and one of my players wants to play a Soulknife I point them at two things, then let them decide.

First I point at Mind's Eye Expanded Class, pt 1: Which one feature allows you to pick a soulknife feat instead of gaining Psychic strikes.

Second I point them at the two feats Psycarnum Blade, and Psycarnum Infusion both from Magic Incarnum.
(Xd6 Insight Bonus Damage to you're mindblade until the beginning of your next turn.)

Then questions like this don't ever really come up anymore. Aside from "Why is the class a little weak" still, but every little bit helps.

But to directly answer your question. I'm in the Camp that says your Psychic strikes only affect the "First" target you Blood Wind, and yes dropping them "Resets" your mindblade.

[Hague]

Yeah, I'm the one that posted the original statement about the conditionals of other types of precision damage, incorrectly I might add.

However, Psychic Strike is not precision damage, it is mind-affecting damage like Mind Thrust or Ego Whip. Knife to the Soul, (psychic strike ambush feat it seems) has the ability to KO a high hit dice critter by attacking its Wisdom, Charisma, or Intelligence. A dinosaur for instance could become brain-dead in one shot from it. Likewise for numerous powerful creatures. If you pick up the Mind Cleave feat you can restore your psychic strike every time you kill something, making you a dangerous character in mop-up situations. I'd consider picking up a few levels in a ToB class to flesh out this class a bit more meanwhile picking up levels in Illumine Soul.

Question: Are there any feats or class features out there that let you affect the minds of things normally immune to mind-affecting things? It'd be nice to be able to psychic strike an ooze.

[DragonsAion]

From the SRD


Bladewind (Su)
At 9th level, a soulknife gains the ability to momentarily fragment his mind blade into numerous identical blades, each of which strikes at a nearby opponent.

As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, a soulknife can give up his regular attacks and instead fragment his mind blade to make one melee attack at his full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to the soulknife’s regular mind blade.

When using bladewind, a soulknife forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell).

The mind blade immediately reverts to its previous form after the bladewind attack


I guess it comes down to how you define "regular mind blade" 1) A mindblade that has been charged with Psychic Strike is fragmented so each fragment works as a psychic strike mindblade or 2) the mindblade loses the psychic strike and simply acts as a normal mindblade.

the fact that it reads "Each fragment functions identically" seems to suggest that if you allow psychic strike to work on one then you have to allow it to work on them all.

[2xMachina]

Hmm, the way I read it...

Roll 1 attack roll. Target: Everything in range. I'd say they all take Psychic Strike damage.

[erikun]

In my game, I had two soulknife players; only one of them actually got Bladewind. I allowed her to apply psychic strike damage to all attacks.

I would keep allowing it. Honestly, that is the only way that any Whirlwind-like attacks will be useable in a fight. You might want to reconsider how Knife to the Soul works, though, to prevent your player from trying to instakill large groups of creatures. (3-4 INT damage to everything in range, every turn, is pretty brutal.)

Or not, if the game is fast-paced and opponents die easily anyways.

[2xMachina]

Meh, solution to that is don't clump together.

[Hague]

Well, as far as I can tell, there are no reach weapon Mind Blade feats, so at best you can get 8 guys around you (unless you're large or larger) so really it's not that strong. And as far as Knife to the Soul goes, you have to single-class it for at least 13 levels to get the ability, which by then guarantees that you'll be outpaced for damage output. Also, you can't do it every round since charging Psychic Strike takes a move action (or is free, if you have Mind Cleave and kill an enemy in the process) Since you can't kill anything directly with mental attribute damage, it's hard to dump all the Psychic Strike damage into attribute damage and still gain the benefits of Mind Cleave.

In regards to the mentioned Psycarnum feats, how does that work? If you use Psycarnum Infusion to power Psycarnum Blade, won't you lose the effect after your next round? Or is there some trick that I'm not getting?

[Stegyre]

From the SRD


Bladewind (Su)
At 9th level, a soulknife gains the ability to momentarily fragment his mind blade into numerous identical blades, each of which strikes at a nearby opponent.

As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, a soulknife can give up his regular attacks and instead fragment his mind blade to make one melee attack at his full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to the soulknife’s regular mind blade.

When using bladewind, a soulknife forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell).

The mind blade immediately reverts to its previous form after the bladewind attack


I guess it comes down to how you define "regular mind blade" 1) A mindblade that has been charged with Psychic Strike is fragmented so each fragment works as a psychic strike mindblade or 2) the mindblade loses the psychic strike and simply acts as a normal mindblade.

the fact that it reads "Each fragment functions identically" seems to suggest that if you allow psychic strike to work on one then you have to allow it to work on them all.

You left out some rather important, extra bolding there. The extra damage from Psychic Strike is a "bonus" (specifically, a damage bonus) granted by an "ability."

I agree with one of the first posters that soulknife is so weak that allowing it would not break anything, but by RAW, I don't see it happening.

[Snake-Aes]

You forfeit bonus/extra attacks, not bonus modifiers to those.

[DragonsAion]

""When using bladewind, a soulknife forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). ""

That just tells me that outside bonuses and feats don't work with the attack but normal class abilities do.

Anyway the soulknife is not a front-line warriorish class. It’s a more if a harassing skirmisher type. I played a fairly good soulknife that out lasted and believe it or not out killed the rest of the party just using the spring attack line of feats. The one level of barbarian helped too.

[DragoonWraith]

Anyway the soulknife is not a front-line warriorish class. It’s a more if a harassing skirmisher type. I played a fairly good soulknife that out lasted and believe it or not out killed the rest of the party just using the spring attack line of feats. The one level of barbarian helped too.

You didn't have a "good" soul knife (such a thing does not exist), you just had a very under-optimized party.

[Greenish]

""When using bladewind, a soulknife forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell). ""

That just tells me that outside bonuses and feats don't work with the attack but normal class abilities do.

Outside bonuses and feats work, you just don't get more attacks.