(3.5) Is there a power spiral?

[Ilmryn]

I recently read a book on the history of dnd. It said that in the old AD&D, each supplement offering options more powerful than the earlier ones, to the point where a supplement-using character was way more powerful than a core character. In your opinion, is this problem presnt in dnd 3.5?

[Yuki Akuma]

For most classes? Yes.

For Wizards, Clerics and (arguably) Druids? The best material is almost all in the PHB.

[Gnaeus]

Are the strongest characters stronger? Not appreciably. Wizard, Cleric, Druid are not appreciably stronger with 10 books than they are in core. They can break the game either way.

Do the weakest characters have more options? Yes. A fighter with ToB is way better than one without. A paladin with complete champion is way better than one without. The new classes that perform the melee role are much better balanced (meaning stronger, more able to live in a party with a moderately optimized caster without feeling like a hireling) than their core counterparts.

[Ernir]

Is it there? Obviously. One might argue that increasing the number of options inherently increases the power level.

Is this a problem? In my opinion, not really.

[Irreverent Fool]

I have to agree with Gnaeus' assessment of the situation. While the supplements can have the effect of turning the whole game into "rocket tag", without the supplements, it's still a game of rocket tag but only the full-casters are armed.

Also remember that every new option for the player is a new option for a canny DM.

If you really want to mess things up, try some third-party books. I have one with a 1st-level spell that attracts all mindless undead within miles/level to a point determined by the caster for days.

[Volthawk]

If you really want to mess things up, try some third-party books. I have one with a 1st-level spell that attracts all mindless undead within miles/level to a point determined by the caster for days.

I quite like Tome of Horrors, myself.

[Greenish]

Is there a power spiral in 3.5? Absolutely!

Allow me to demonstrate.

Core fighter:

Spoiler

Show

ToB warblade:

Spoiler

Show

[Zeta Kai]

If you really want to mess things up, try some third-party books. I have one with a 1st-level spell that attracts all mindless undead within miles/level to a point determined by the caster for days.

It's broken-ness like this that gives third-party a bad name. Then again, it's broken-ness like the Sarrukh, the Incantatrix, & celerity that gives first-party a bad name. And it's broken-ness like Natural Spell, disjunction, & Diplomacy-as-RAW that gives Core a bad name.

Also, as Greenish cleverly illustrated, the power spiral is not always a bad thing. It can make a goofy thing awesome.

[Akal Saris]

Honestly, that hairy muscle-man looks like a more fun character to play than the anime weirdo in the cape.

Anyhow, I think yes, there's an obvious power spiral, which varies from class to class (and character to character). Sometimes this can have a negative effect, like giving wizard even more broken spells like celerity and metamagic reducers that makes piling 3 or more metamagics on a spell do-able, or giving clerics divine metamagic.

But a lot of other times I think the power spiral is actually a good thing. Bards are quite a bit more interesting and fun with all the non-core feats and abilities, ditto for rangers and rogue-types. Non-core also makes some options like theurge-type classes and gishes much more viable than core only.

[Greenish]

Honestly, that hairy muscle-man looks like a more fun character to play than the anime weirdo in the cape.

The point is that the guy in the cape has more spiral power.

[Frosty]

The point is that the guy in the cape has more spiral power.

Please do not add to the misconception that ToB = Anime, whatever the hell that means.

[Greenish]

Please do not add to the misconception that ToB = Anime, whatever the hell that means.

But… but spiral power!

[oxybe]

if you don't believe Greenish, believe in me, who believes in him!

[Yuki Akuma]

Please do not add to the misconception that ToB = Anime, whatever the hell that means.

What?

It's a pun.

[Lycanthromancer]

MYSTIK SPIRAL!

[Gametime]

But… but spiral power!

If it helps, I saw what you did there.

And I'm disappointed I got to this thread too late to make the joke myself.

At any rate, a character with access to all books can be built more powerfully than a character with access to only Core books. For full casters, the increase in power is most definitely appreciable, although not as radical as for the classes that can't rewrite reality in under 6 seconds several times a day.

Having access to Celerity, Craft Contingent Spell, Superior Invisibility, Mindsight, and a few other choice selections does make a wizard harder to deal with than he would have been otherwise, and Divine Metamagic takes the cleric from "better than a fighter in every meaningful way" to "better than every fighting class in every way ever."

[herrhauptmann]

I quite like Tome of Horrors, myself.

Tomb of Horrors perhaps?

Using 3rd party stuff as the DM is okay, so long as you tell the party at character creation that certain 3rd party books are good.
I did it for circle and ritual magic from Arcana Unearthed (not Unearthed Arcana), and told the party that I was going to use some 3rd party stuff, but specified which ones.
I also specified which first party stuff I wasn't going to allow, like Murky Eyed flaw, or Feral Template, the sarrukh did not exist (when I said that, one guy shifted from playing kobold to goblin)
And which ones I was going to houserule, like a form of halfogre that's LA+1 becomes +2.

[9mm]

Honestly, that hairy muscle-man looks like a more fun character to play than the anime weirdo in the cape.

John "Earthquake" Tenta was awesome... even if he did squash Jake "The Snake" Robert's snake, though his feud with Hogan was made of win. for WWF 80's professional wrestling anyway.

[PId6]

The point is that the guy in the cape has more spiral power.

That is awesome.

[Zombieboots]

I recently read a book on the history of dnd. It said that in the old AD&D, each supplement offering options more powerful than the earlier ones, to the point where a supplement-using character was way more powerful than a core character. In your opinion, is this problem presnt in dnd 3.5?

Welcome to Marketing.
Yes it's the same problem and no it will never go away. However some good things have come it too (ToB). Just shows you, keep an open mind, but don't be afraid to slam that 'disallowed' hammer.

"It's only a problem if it's a problem."

[Draxar]

I'd say that while, yeah, a lot of the most powerful options are in the PHB, there are a fair few 'combine X with Y with Z' outside of it, and for people who aren't top notch optimisers, but are optimising, more books does equal more powerful characters.

[Yuki Akuma]

So basically, while the maximum went up by, say, two points, the average went up by fifty?

Sounds about right.

[Irreverent Fool]

Honestly, that hairy muscle-man looks like a more fun character to play than the anime weirdo in the cape.

I played a diamond-mind focused mongrelfolk warblade with a Charisma of 6. He was very much the hairy muscle-man.

[Runestar]

Yes in a good sense, as the splatbooks help in bridging the gap between melee and casters.

[Ormagoden]

Is there a power spiral in 3.5? Absolutely!

Allow me to demonstrate.

Core fighter:

Spoiler

Show

ToB warblade:

Spoiler

Show

You leave earthquake alone greenish!!!





Where is tugboat by the way?

[Milskidasith]

There's no possible way to release supplements without increasing the potential power of the classes, unless everything in the supplements is exactly like something in core, but worse.

[Reluctance]

Every book will give people more options should they feel the need, and every book will have a couple that somebody really wasn't paying attention to. So in an absolute sense, more splat does equal more power.

What I think you're talking about is power creep, where the company deliberately makes stuff in new releases more powerful to entice buyers. (At which point the next book needs even more powerful stuff, and so on.) 3.x was actually very good about keeping tabs on this. Sure, they did release stuff like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, but stuff in the next book didn't assume that everybody was playing one and using that as the new baseline.

[sonofzeal]

Every book will give people more options should they feel the need, and every book will have a couple that somebody really wasn't paying attention to. So in an absolute sense, more splat does equal more power.

What I think you're talking about is power creep, where the company deliberately makes stuff in new releases more powerful to entice buyers. (At which point the next book needs even more powerful stuff, and so on.) 3.x was actually very good about keeping tabs on this. Sure, they did release stuff like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, but stuff in the next book didn't assume that everybody was playing one and using that as the new baseline.

Very true, but only for PCs really. I've noticed a definite power creep in monsters though. Later monsters are usually rather more dangerous for their CR than MM1 ones are, even ignoring the occasional That Damn Crab or similar unbalanced one. It's subtle, but I think there's definitely been a pattern there towards more and more powerful monsters in later books, for the same CR levels.

[PId6]

Very true, but only for PCs really. I've noticed a definite power creep in monsters though. Later monsters are usually rather more dangerous for their CR than MM1 ones are, even ignoring the occasional That Damn Crab or similar unbalanced one. It's subtle, but I think there's definitely been a pattern there towards more and more powerful monsters in later books, for the same CR levels.

I think that's probably due to the expectation of optimization going up as the game progresses. MM1 creatures tend to be not much of a challenge for optimized parties, with a few specific exceptions (*cough*Allip*cough*, *cough*Planetar*cough*). Later books have monsters that are more appropriate for optimized parties and are actually a challenge.

[Gametime]

Very true, but only for PCs really. I've noticed a definite power creep in monsters though. Later monsters are usually rather more dangerous for their CR than MM1 ones are, even ignoring the occasional That Damn Crab or similar unbalanced one. It's subtle, but I think there's definitely been a pattern there towards more and more powerful monsters in later books, for the same CR levels.

Which is sometimes understandable (the later Monster Manuals demonstrate an improved grasp on design principles) and sometimes perplexing. I seem to recall one monster from Libris Mortis who had spent all its feats on Toughness, despite that being a book whose very purpose was to give undead more options in the form of things like feats.

How more balanced monsters ever came about in the face of such design, I have no idea, but they managed it eventually.