[3.0 to PF] Rogue Build

[bartman]

So we are starting a pathfinder game soon, and our DM has opened up any 3.0 or 3.5 books, so long as she can approve our builds first. I really like the pathfinder rogue, so I am planning on using that as my base, dipping a couple of levels of swordsage for some maneuvers and of course Assassins stance.

we are starting out at 10th level, and I was thinking 7 levels of PF Rogue, then dipping SS for 2 levels. I have 1 level left, and was wondering if I get back to rogue, take another SS level, or try going for a prestige class.

My feats are not set in stone yet, but I will likely be going with 2 weapon fighting using rapiers (so O-S TWF and imp TWF), using Master of Poisons from DotU, craven (duh), theres a feat from Alderac called Superior finesse (DEX to damage) so I can completely dump STR, and I was also considering mage slayer and pierce magical concealment. I am hoping she is going to allow flaws, so that I can do it all, but if not, well, got some things to look foreward to when I level.

What do you guys think, what would you change, and hat would you do for that 10th level?

[Ernir]

What are you using as the base system? You know, with respect to Tumble DCs, the existence of the Concentration skill, etc.

[Kaiyanwang]

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My feats are not set in stone yet, but I will likely be going with 2 weapon fighting using rapiers (so O-S TWF and imp TWF), using Master of Poisons from DotU, craven (duh), theres a feat from Alderac called Superior finesse (DEX to damage) so I can completely dump STR, and I was also considering mage slayer and pierce magical concealment. I am hoping she is going to allow flaws, so that I can do it all, but if not, well, got some things to look foreward to when I level.

I guess you will take Combat Trick and Finesse Rogue as rogue talents, since you are feat starved.

Ideas for the last one? Why not Surprise Attack, to start a chain of flat-footedness with Shadow Hand?

[Gametime]

we are starting out at 10th level, and I was thinking 7 levels of PF Rogue, then dipping SS for 2 levels. I have 1 level left, and was wondering if I get back to rogue, take another SS level, or try going for a prestige class.

Unless you really want a different class in the 10th level, I'd recommend taking 8 levels of rogue before dipping swordsage. As a Rogue 7/SS 1, your initiator level is only 4; as a Rogue 8/SS 1, it's 5, meaning that the maneuvers you get from your first level of swordsage can all be of 3rd level (or lower). That's a nice boost, since you get so many at level 1.

If your DM ignores the restriction that your first stance has to be 1st level, then taking eight levels of rogue first will also allow you to get a 3rd level stance right off the bat (two, actually, since you're taking two levels of swordsage). Assassin's Stance is nice.

[Another_Poet]

I second another level of Rogue.

However, I think a level of Beguiler would also be fun. Sure it's low-level spells but they are the kind that can really help a rogue, and you can cast in your light roguish armour. I don't know that it's the optimised choice but it sure is a fun one.

[bartman]

What are you using as the base system

Pathfinder, 3.5 and 3.0 are open for feats, but we are using the Pathfinder ruled for skills, feats, DCs and everything else.

I guess you will take Combat Trick and Finesse Rogue as rogue talents, since you are feat starved.

Ideas for the last one? Why not Surprise Attack, to start a chain of flat-footedness with Shadow Hand?

Absolutely on the 2 rogue talents. Where would I find Surprise Attack?(<In Head> Look before you type) And can you elaborate on the "chain of flat-footedness"

Unless you really want a different class in the 10th level, I'd recommend taking 8 levels of rogue before dipping swordsage. As a Rogue 7/SS 1, your initiator level is only 4; as a Rogue 8/SS 1, it's 5, meaning that the maneuvers you get from your first level of swordsage can all be of 3rd level (or lower). That's a nice boost, since you get so many at level 1.

Obviously didnt think that through enough, you have a very good point. I think this is the way to go, unless there is a kick @$$ prestige class someone else points out.

If your DM ignores the restriction that your first stance has to be 1st level, then taking eight levels of rogue first will also allow you to get a 3rd level stance right off the bat (two, actually, since you're taking two levels of swordsage). Assassin's Stance is nice.

I'm not gonna say anything if you don't

[Gametime]

I second another level of Rogue.

However, I think a level of Beguiler would also be fun. Sure it's low-level spells but they are the kind that can really help a rogue, and you can cast in your light roguish armour. I don't know that it's the optimised choice but it sure is a fun one.

Beguiler is an awesome class, but I wouldn't take it, as a rogue. Low level spells are easily replicated with the amazingness that is UMD (or, at least, the low level spells you really really want as a rogue).

[Kaiyanwang]

And can you elaborate on the "chain of flat-footedness"

I was thinking to shadow hand maneuvers that make the target flat footed.. like shadow garrote.. adding in skill tricks to quickdraw a weapon and make the enemy flat footed, you could increase the chanche of deliver Sneak Attacks..

[Person_Man]

My suggestion is strait Pathfinder Rogue 10. That will give you plenty of feats and an Advanced Talent (Crippling Strike or Dispelling Attack), and the lack of multi-classing will seem less abusive, which should allow you to get away with more abusive feats. Suggestions:

If you're willing to be a dragonblooded race (dragonborn, variant kobold, etc) you can take the Dragon Tail (Races of the Dragon) and Prehensile Tail (Serpent Kingdoms) feats to effectively get three arms. This qualifies you Multiweapon Fighting, which is vastly superior to the TWF tree.

Savvy Rogue: Lets you use Crippling Strike against enemies who are immune to ability damage. Comp Scoundrel

Maiming Strike: Replaces Sneak Attack with Cha damage on a 2d6 for 1 basis. Some enemies (animals, aberrations, magical beasts) have piss poor Cha. And if they have high Cha, they often depend on it to cast. Exemplars of Evil.

Staggering Strike: When you Sneak Attack an enemy with a melee attack, they must Save or be Staggered for one round, limiting them to a single Move or Standard action. (Preventing a full attack and some spells). Comp Adventurer.

Craven: +1 Sneak Attack damage per character level. Champions of Ruin.

Undo Resistance: Sneak Attacks lower Spell Resistance. Great for high level characters. Fiendish Codex II.

Darkstalker: Lets you Hide, even if your enemy has scent, tremorsense, see invisibility, etc. Great for builds that can pick up Hide in Plain Sight. Lords of Madness.

Dragonfire Strike: Turns your Sneak Attack damage into energy damage, bypassing Precision Damage immunity, assuming your DM is nice about it (some argue that you must first deal the Sneak Attack damage before it becomes energy damage). Also adds +1d6 damage, which is nifty. Dragon Magic.

Also, what exactly are your attributes? It's not worth taking X to Y feats (Weapon Finesse et al) unless there is a large chasm between them. For example, if your attributes are 14, 18, 14, 14, 10, 10, then you're only getting a +2 to hit and damage. If your stats are something like 10, 18, 14, 18, 10, 10, I would just move the 18 from Int into Str. Either way, there are tons of better feats out there.

[bartman]

Also, what exactly are your attributes? It's not worth taking X to Y feats (Weapon Finesse et al) unless there is a large chasm between them. For example, if your attributes are 14, 18, 14, 14, 10, 10, then you're only getting a +2 to hit and damage. If your stats are something like 10, 18, 14, 18, 10, 10, I would just move the 18 from Int into Str. Either way, there are tons of better feats out there.

I have not yet rolled my attributes, so if I end up with godlike numbers, then i can save myself 3 feats(weapon finesse, combat expertise(prereq), and superior finesse), I simply had them in there in case I needed to dump STR.

If you're willing to be a dragonblooded race (dragonborn, variant kobold, etc) you can take the Dragon Tail (Races of the Dragon) and Prehensile Tail (Serpent Kingdoms) feats to effectively get three arms. This qualifies you Multiweapon Fighting, which is vastly superior to the TWF tree.

If I know my GM(my wife) then I can guarantee this will be banned, but it is interesting.

Savvy Rogue...Dragonfire Strike

These are all pretty cool, I am of course taking Craven, because, well, duh...
I will have to look up Maiming Strike. What happens when CHA is reduced to 0?

Excellent ideas, thanks for the insight, and if you have more, hey all the better

[Person_Man]

I will have to look up Maiming Strike. What happens when CHA is reduced to 0?

You become catatonic and helpless. Using Crippling Strike and Maiming Strike together with Wounding weapons is utterly deadly against all non-immune enemies, and Savvy Rogue let's you use Crippling Strike against immune enemies.

[Ernir]

What happens when CHA is reduced to 0?

Unconsciousness.

Which is one of the conditions you really really want your opponents to have.

EDIT: Rogue'd.