Marshal 9 / Paladin 2 - Where to go from here?

[Defiant]

Greetings,

In a D&D game I'm in, I've been playing a Marshal, since I really like the class (though I'm fast finding that it offers pretty much nothing the more you go further in it*). I've been pumping my charisma like nobody's business, and I have the charisma skills pretty set with massive bonuses.

* - In fact, I started out with Marshal 10, but when I leveled up and realized how useless further levels of Marshal were for me, my DM allowed me to switch my 10th level for something else

I went paladin obviously for the Divine Grace, though the BAB doesn't hurt and the lay-on-hands is definitely awesome.

In combat, my character is a specialized tripper and disarmer. That's how I've focused my build. So yes, he has Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm. He fights with a spiked chain.

He has had certain difficulties tripping enemies, because a lot of the enemies we've faced have been many size categories larger than us (with obscene strength bonuses). But he keeps trying nonetheless!


Now, the question is, where do I take my build from here? He just leveled up to 12, and I have no idea what to do. I've been looking through various books, and I can't figure out a nice class or prestige class for me to go in (character is human by the way).

I've also been looking for good feats that use charisma, such as intimidating stuff, but I haven't found much... most feats mean you only affect one enemy, and usually only for a round; which seems rather meek to me.

My character is (now) Chaotic Neutral, so even more rogueish classes are acceptable.

So does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

[Snake-Aes]

Greetings,

In a D&D game I'm in, I've been playing a Marshal, since I really like the class (though I'm fast finding that it offers pretty much nothing the more you go further in it*). I've been pumping my charisma like nobody's business, and I have the charisma skills pretty set with massive bonuses.

* - In fact, I started out with Marshal 10, but when I leveled up and realized how useless further levels of Marshal were for me, my DM allowed me to switch my 10th level for something else

I went paladin obviously for the Divine Grace, though the BAB doesn't hurt and the lay-on-hands is definitely awesome.

In combat, my character is a specialized tripper and disarmer. That's how I've focused my build. So yes, he has Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm. He fights with a spiked chain.

He has had certain difficulties tripping enemies, because a lot of the enemies we've faced have been many size categories larger than us (with obscene strength bonuses). But he keeps trying nonetheless!


Now, the question is, where do I take my build from here? He just leveled up to 12, and I have no idea what to do. I've been looking through various books, and I can't figure out a nice class or prestige class for me to go in (character is human by the way).

I've also been looking for good feats that use charisma, such as intimidating stuff, but I haven't found much... most feats mean you only affect one enemy, and usually only for a round; which seems rather meek to me.

My character is (now) Chaotic Neutral, so even more rogueish classes are acceptable.

So does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

standard paladins lose divine grace when the paladin status drops (they pretty much only keep the BAB and proficiencies). Should as well have taken 2 fighter levels instead. Or is it a variant?

[Mongoose87]

You're chaotic neutral and a Paladin?

[Defiant]

standard paladins lose divine grace when the paladin status drops (they pretty much only keep the BAB and proficiencies).

Actually I never had Paladin status (Lawful Neutral). DM ruled that I've been in the company of paladins for so long that I've mastered their ways, and allowed me to take 2 levels of paladin and gain the benefits.

Should as well have taken 2 fighter levels instead. Or is it a variant?

2 fighter levels for what? That's the question! What feats could I use to improve my abilities? What classes would best fit to amplify my specialties?

[Kaiyanwang]

A workaround comes in my mind - what are the classes and levels of your teamates?

Maybe is a silly question, but do spellacster buff you enough to do your job as a tripper?

[Defiant]

A workaround comes in my mind - what are the classes and levels of your teamates?

Maybe is a silly question, but do spellacster buff you enough to do your job as a tripper?

No. Magic is outlawed.

Classes are just about everything (low on magic classes though), and levels are the same.

The reason I didn't mention that is because I am now Chaotic Neutral, so I'm not so keen on following the whole "no magic" law.

[Zovc]

[Tome of Battle class] might be in order.

If you want to try spellcasting, you'll probably fall short, but Sublime Chord might be able to serve you well.

Your levels will end up being cramped and you won't quite make it to 9th level spells, but you will need the following:

One level in Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, or Warmage and the Versatile Spellcaster. Verify that your DM will allow you to use the feat to cast third level spells (since the listed classes, according to their text, know all of their spell list). Make sure you can cast 4 1st level spells total to cast two 2nd level spells, then use those two to cast a 3rd level spell.*

*Does this work?

One level in Bard, or something else that will give you the Bardic Music ability.

Meet Sublime Chord's steep skill prerequisites.

???

Get 7 levels in Sublime Chord, granting you 8th level spells keyed off of Charisma.

[Kaiyanwang]

Well, you could work on fear based effects and other charisma based feats.

Goad from complete Adventurer is a feat allowing you to taunt enemies in melee, forcing them to attack you.

Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark makes enemies intimidated cower for 1 round. is generally used along a fighter ACF (swif action intimidate) and a skill trick from Complete Scoundrel allowing area effect intimidate attempts.

Do you like something along these lines?

[Tar Palantir]

*Does this work?

No. Versatile allows you to use two spell slots of level X to cast one spell of level X+1. Since it does not create a spell slot of X+1, you can't use Versatile on it again.

[Zombieboots]

Well not sure if you'd like this but the Mythic Exemplar (Reikhardt) from Complete Champion increases some of you're marshal abilities but doesn't grant you any additionally Auras.

Also since you're a little lenient toward the whole "Magic Thing" I'd mention there are a few Marshal Specific items in the Magic Item Compendium. The "Rearguard Cloak" and the Item Set "Regalia of the Hero". Even if you're DM is strict about the "No Magic" thing let him have a look both items. They help the marshal get a little more out of all his Auras.

I'll mimic Zovc's Suggestion about Tome of Battle Class but I'll add: take either Warblade or Cursade (or both) and snag "From Smite to Song" form Campions of Valor and "Song of the White Raven" from Tome of Battle. This'll stay into line with your Marhsal Theme and allow you to use Bardic Music "Inspirational Shouting" equal to whatever levels you have in Bard/Cursader/Warblade. So you'll be able to Sing up some inspiration for your party while still rocking out from ToB Maneuvers choices.

[Glimbur]

I would suggest Crusader from ToB. They get some useful tanking and battlefield control abilities, and multiclassing with ToB is much kinder than starting a casting class now.

[Ernir]

Crusader or Warblade.

[Lycanthromancer]

Go bard this level (toss lots of ranks into Perform: Oration), and take Snowflake Wardance. Take 2 more levels in bard (the Healing Hymn ACF and the Eberron bard sub-levels [trade bardic musics for bardic feats]) and pimp out Inspire Courage (badge of valor, Song of the Heart, and Words of Creation), and net +6 (or more) on inspire courage.

Grab 3 ranks in Perform: Percussion for masterwork wardrums (go lambeg drums; they're considerably louder than a jet engine, and can be heard from miles away) for mass battles, if you expect them. They're the same cost as normal masterwork instruments, and they grant a +1 to attack and damage for inspire courage, but -1 to the other benefits...which is awesome.

Then go into crusader and prepare to ROCK.

[Snake-Aes]

I don't think he qualifies for crusader :x but then again neither does for a paladin.
Warblades are more int-centric tho. If you dumped int you won't make use ot most class features.

[Lycanthromancer]

I don't think he qualifies for crusader :x but then again neither does for a paladin.
Warblades are more int-centric tho. If you dumped int you won't make use ot most class features.

You don't have to 'qualify' for crusader, unless you're not talking about the ToB class?

[Snake-Aes]

You don't have to 'qualify' for crusader, unless you're not talking about the ToB class?

the alignments. they've gotta be a non-neutral alignment.

[Lycanthromancer]

the alignments. they've gotta be a non-neutral alignment.

Pretty sure that just means non-True Neutral. Chaotic Neutral could very well work.

[Snake-Aes]

Pretty sure that just means non-True Neutral. Chaotic Neutral could very well work.

nevermind >.> You got it.

[Lycanthromancer]

No, it specifies you can't be neutral on either axis. It's LG/LE/CE/CG only.

"A crusader can choose any alignment except neutral - she must stand for some idea, whether Chaos, Good, Evil, Law or a combination of principles." (Highlight is mine.)

That sentence says you can be a combination of moral and ethical alignments, or just one, meaning any alignment but TN.

[Snake-Aes]

You should refresh your browser :p I beat you at ninjaing myself 2 minutes earlier.

[Lycanthromancer]

You should refresh your browser :p I beat you at ninjaing myself 2 minutes earlier.

I had to do a stealth-quote.

But my money is still on bard; you could do amazing things for buffage with them. Then crusader, and focus on White Raven. If you can get marshal to count as bard levels, then Song of the White Raven is a must-have.

[Cespenar]

One level of Warlock and get Dark One's Own Luck, if you feel one or two of your saves could be nicer. You should have already taken Force of Personality, so, presumably, your only lacking save is Reflex.

[IdleMuse]

Most of the above suggestions are good, but I'd just like to add one more, slightly off-the-wall: Warchief from Minis Handbook (presuming it's allowed, since you are a Marshall..)

What it grants you is pretty simple: 1. Lots more Charisma. 2. Aura of +X strength, as long as the party has a good healer. Where X can be anything up to 10. In a party with low magic, i'm assuming you have a fair number of melee combatants, and granting them ALL +6 or +8 str is a fairly large boost to overall damage. Combine it with an optional level or 5 of Dragon Shaman/some other heal aura class to negate some of the hit point loss, and/or a good mass healer, and you're doing a lot of good for your party, if they don't hate you for the hp loss :)

For a more feat-intense look at it, take a couple of levels of Cleric (with Dynamic Priest, if you can blag it past your DM), or Shugenja with Spontaneous Healing if you can't, then take Dragon Prophesier and Prophecies Shepherd to auto-quicken Cures, then if you've got the feats, Maximise Spell and Mastery of Day and Night to auto-maximise them, granting you the ability to heal a lot of the damage you're dealing to your party members that same turn.

Dynamic Priest is from Legends of the Twins, a dragonlance book
The Prophecy feats are from Magic of Eberron.
Mastery of Day and Night is from Player's Guide to Eberron.

Overall not the most sensible option, but certainly looks fun.

[Defiant]

Alright, after taking a look at the various options I have, I will be going with Crusader for my next class. I really like the stance which gives enemies -4 to attacks to my allies.

I'm also going with the Goad feat. So my role is focusing in on tank.

Another possibility was Knight, but too mounted-based, and quite a bit far away from my alignment.

Any advice in regards to class choice and options is welcome!


Furthermore, I've read the text and understand the basic gist of it, I think, but could someone please give me a summary/crash-course in maneuvres and stances? Assume Crusader.

[Tome of Battle class] might be in order.

If you want to try spellcasting, you'll probably fall short, but Sublime Chord might be able to serve you well.

Your levels will end up being cramped and you won't quite make it to 9th level spells, but you will need the following:

One level in Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, or Warmage and the Versatile Spellcaster. Verify that your DM will allow you to use the feat to cast third level spells (since the listed classes, according to their text, know all of their spell list). Make sure you can cast 4 1st level spells total to cast two 2nd level spells, then use those two to cast a 3rd level spell.*

*Does this work?

One level in Bard, or something else that will give you the Bardic Music ability.

Meet Sublime Chord's steep skill prerequisites.

???

Get 7 levels in Sublime Chord, granting you 8th level spells keyed off of Charisma.

Nah, I don't really want to go into Bard... I want to go into a more martial-type class, rather than spellcasting.

Well, you could work on fear based effects and other charisma based feats.

Goad from complete Adventurer is a feat allowing you to taunt enemies in melee, forcing them to attack you.

Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark makes enemies intimidated cower for 1 round. is generally used along a fighter ACF (swif action intimidate) and a skill trick from Complete Scoundrel allowing area effect intimidate attempts.

Do you like something along these lines?

This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for. More feats and options that do these things would be appreciated!

Well not sure if you'd like this but the Mythic Exemplar (Reikhardt) from Complete Champion increases some of you're marshal abilities but doesn't grant you any additionally Auras.

Checked it out, where does it increase my Marshal abilities?

Though its fluff is a bit too specific, not really my thing.

Also since you're a little lenient toward the whole "Magic Thing" I'd mention there are a few Marshal Specific items in the Magic Item Compendium. The "Rearguard Cloak" and the Item Set "Regalia of the Hero". Even if you're DM is strict about the "No Magic" thing let him have a look both items. They help the marshal get a little more out of all his Auras.

Sounds great! The DM isn't strict about the "no magic", just the Paladins around are.

Currently my character is naked and has no possessions or wealth, but when I come across some money, I'll definitely try for those items! They go well in line with my character's niche. Problem is that it's a large group, so the Rearguard Cape is not that likely to be useful too often.

I'll mimic Zovc's Suggestion about Tome of Battle Class but I'll add: take either Warblade or Cursade (or both) and snag "From Smite to Song" form Campions of Valor and "Song of the White Raven" from Tome of Battle. This'll stay into line with your Marhsal Theme and allow you to use Bardic Music "Inspirational Shouting" equal to whatever levels you have in Bard/Cursader/Warblade. So you'll be able to Sing up some inspiration for your party while still rocking out from ToB Maneuvers choices.

Given I have no bardic music, this Song of the White Raven doesn't seem to be of any use to me.

I don't have "Champions of Valor" unfortunately.

I would suggest Crusader from ToB. They get some useful tanking and battlefield control abilities, and multiclassing with ToB is much kinder than starting a casting class now.

Indeed, that is how I am proceeding. I just hope that ToB isn't too much like spellcasting in that starting one of its classes late is a useless endeavour, the same way that wizard spellcasting (for example) is.

One level of Warlock and get Dark One's Own Luck, if you feel one or two of your saves could be nicer. You should have already taken Force of Personality, so, presumably, your only lacking save is Reflex.

Warlock is too magicky for me... I'd like a more martial-based character.

I actually haven't taken Force of Personality, because of taking the trip and disarm tree, as well as Improved Toughness. My saves are excellent since I have divine grace, so I don't think this feat is as important in comparison to other possibilities.

Most of the above suggestions are good, but I'd just like to add one more, slightly off-the-wall: Warchief from Minis Handbook (presuming it's allowed, since you are a Marshall..)

What it grants you is pretty simple: 1. Lots more Charisma. 2. Aura of +X strength, as long as the party has a good healer. Where X can be anything up to 10. In a party with low magic, i'm assuming you have a fair number of melee combatants, and granting them ALL +6 or +8 str is a fairly large boost to overall damage. Combine it with an optional level or 5 of Dragon Shaman/some other heal aura class to negate some of the hit point loss, and/or a good mass healer, and you're doing a lot of good for your party, if they don't hate you for the hp loss :)

Good idea, but not for my party. Given the no-magic laws around, healing is rather scarce. Our cleric is a massive multiclass, and our favoured soul is mostly tank-centric.

The charisma boost is tempting... definitely tempting... but I think I'm about as charismatic as I'm going to get, and any further will likely lead to diminishing returns (currently at 30CHA, technically).

For a more feat-intense look at it, take a couple of levels of Cleric (with Dynamic Priest, if you can blag it past your DM), or Shugenja with Spontaneous Healing if you can't, then take Dragon Prophesier and Prophecies Shepherd to auto-quicken Cures, then if you've got the feats, Maximise Spell and Mastery of Day and Night to auto-maximise them, granting you the ability to heal a lot of the damage you're dealing to your party members that same turn.

Dynamic Priest is from Legends of the Twins, a dragonlance book
The Prophecy feats are from Magic of Eberron.
Mastery of Day and Night is from Player's Guide to Eberron.

Overall not the most sensible option, but certainly looks fun.

Again, good idea, but I'm not interested in entering spellcasting.

[nedz]

Feats:
Kiai Shout for Greater Kiai Shout
Since the DC is Cha based you should be able to rout large mobs of mooks, if they are within your reach: so much the better.

Ed: You do have Combat Reflexes don't you ? I'd just assumed this what with you being a Tripper and all.

[Kaiyanwang]

Neds mentioned the Kiai Shouts.. other Cha-based:

Daunting Presence (MiniHand, LibMortis): 30 feet radius area of effect intimidate. Don't know if is worthy.

Frightful Presence (Draconomicon): When you charge or attack, everybody in 30 feet must save or be shaken. I like it more because does not requires a specific action.

Resounding Blow (Exalted Deeds): if you deliver a critical hit, the target must save or cower.

Hope can be useful.

[Darkfire]

Furthermore, I've read the text and understand the basic gist of it, I think, but could someone please give me a summary/crash-course in maneuvres and stances? Assume Crusader.

Read this: Tome of Battle for Dummies

Indeed, that is how I am proceeding. I just hope that ToB isn't too much like spellcasting in that starting one of its classes late is a useless endeavour, the same way that wizard spellcasting (for example) is.

It's far, far from useless: unlike with casters, the maximum level of manoeuvres that you can learn is based on your initiator level rather than your class level AND your initiator level increases by 1/2 for each level you take in a non-martial adept class. As it stands, you've already got an initiator level of 5.5 which will allow you to pick up 3rd-level manoeuvres when you take your first level in Crusader (you'll still need to meet prerequisites).

[Ryuuk]

If you're going Crusader or Warblade you might want to hold out one more level. That would give you 12 HD before taking the ToB Class, which means you start out with an initiator level of 6, +1 for the actual level in the class. This means you're level 7 for maneuvers when it comes to deciding which ones you can pick up and can take them from 1st to 4th level.

Taking it at 12th would mean you have an initieter level of 11/2 before taking the class, and 6.5 (6) when you take it. You would only be able to pick up maneuvers from 1st to 3rd with your starting bunch.

In short, ToB classes multiclass very well and the later you take the class, the better options you can grab with that first level. Since you get 3-5 maneuvers on that first level as opposed to 1 per level afterwords, it might be nice to take it into consideration. From my experience, if you don't start as a ToB class at level one, the best places to take them would be as your 5th (2nd level maneuvers from the start), 9th (3rd level), 13th (4th level) or 17th (5th level)

[Fouredged Sword]

You may consider that war-chief anyway. I need to look at it, but you will suplement healing as a crusader, so the group won't hurt for healing as much.

Also there is stone power. It's worth noteing that it playes very well with delayed damage from crusader. You take the feat and it allows you to gain up to 10 temp HP for a -5 to attacks. Crusader lets you delay damage 1 round. For the first levels it's only 5 points, but the next round, before the damage is dealt, you can use stone power to get enough temp HP to soak the damage from your delay pool. It's like DR 5/- once a round. Your level may make this less than mindblowing, but most crusaders do this at 1-5th level.

When your delay pool grows to 10 points then the party really gets started. Also any spillover that you can't soak can be healed with some of your strikes. Crusaders tank very well.

Remember to pick up the extra granted manuver feat. It helps alot to make sure that you get the strike you need when you need it, as yours are random.

[strider24seven]

You really can't go wrong with Crusader. The ability to heal yourself, better position yourself, destroy object, or rip through your enemies all day long is invaluable.

Otherwise, listen to the other playgrounders on the Bard/Snowflake Wardance suggestions.

You could always go evil and take Blackguard (trading your paladin level(s), of course).

A 1-level dip in (cloistered) cleric can help. So much so that there's a handbook on it.

I'm AFB, but Slippers of Battledancing might help you out.