2.0 Optimized Skill Rogue

[DDRNick]

Hey guys, my buddy is running a 2.0 edition in a couple weeks and I really don't know much about second. I've played 3.0 3.5 Pathfinder and 4.0. Just looking for some advice on how to make an extremely skill-oriented rogue (since our campaign is going to be very roleplaying).
thanks for the suggestions.

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All books available.
Level 1
Second Edition
Human
Rogue
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[Kurald Galain]

Wow.

Regarding your thief skills, don't spread them around: focus on one or two of them first, max them to 95% or so, then consider the others. Depending on the campaign, the most useful ones are probably PP or OL; also, MS/HS tends to be highly useful regardless.

Note that several of those skills are pretty broad; for instance, PP can be used to plant objects as well as steal them. The Complete Thief handbook has numerous extra uses, as well as items that boost your skill (such as footpads for MS, or soot for HS).

Assuming your DM uses non-weapon proficiencies (but then, I've never met a DM that didn't), grab a good int score and look for proficiencies that have a broad application.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

2e doesn't use skill points, thief/rogue characters get percentage-based sneak, find traps, open locks, pick pockets, and maybe a few more depending on the books being used, and you spend points to increase your percentage chance of success on those. There are nonweapon proficiencies like fishing and basket weaving, which a character gets one of IIRC, but they mostly just serve as backstory. Actions in 2e are based on your imagination, your ability scores, and how successful the DM thinks you should be, rather than an investment of ability on your character's part.

Speaking of ability scores, 10-14 has no bonuses or penalties on any stat, and you were lucky to get anything 15 or higher back then. Don't bother putting your Con score higher than 16, that gives +2 hp per level, and that's the most you can get out of it unless you're a fighter, paladin, or ranger. You'll get an ability called Backstab which multiplies your damage by a certain number if you hit someone while sneaking. You want to pick the race which gets the most bonuses to your percentage-based thief skills, which will probably be between Halfling and Elf. In the edition of 2e I started on (I think it was AD&D) an Elf or Halfling could automatically succeed in sneaking if they were alone or with only other elves and halflings, which may be useful. The only reason to go Elf would be if you want to multiclass Thief/Mage, which splits your XP gains between the two classes and levels them up simultaneously like a gestalt character in 3.X, though you'll end up about one or two levels behind the rest of the party. Mages were extremely weak in the lower levels, but extremely powerful in the higher levels, so it would definitely be in your best interests to go that route.

For more on 2e, try playing through Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 for the PC. I'm actually reinstalling them now!

[klemdakherzbag]

Actually you will end up applying your XP equally to each class. And with the thief/wizard combination you will generally lag one wizard level behind your thief's. I know cause I currently have a thief 6/wizard 5 in one of our ad&d campaigns

[Matthew]

As mentioned above, on a basic level halflings and elves make the best thieves in AD&D, both because they get racial bonuses to the eight thief abilities, but also because they have racial abilities that naturally complement (or even replace) their class abilities. In first edition demi-humans could advance to an unlimited level as a thief, but in second edition this was changed so that elves were limited to level 12 and halflings to level 15. It probably will not impact on your game, and your game master may not be using those rules anyway, but worth bearing in mind. It may well be worth taking advantage of the options to multiclass open to elves and halflings, depending on what you envision for the character, but if you want to choose a kit then you may have to find out your game master's stance on kits and multiclass characters. The base starting percentages are as follows:

Basic Abilities

{table=head]

Ability

|

Human

|

Elf

|

Half-Elf

|Halfling

Pick Pockets

|

15%

|

20%

|

25%

|

20%

|

Open Locks

|

10%

|

5%

|

10%

|

15%

|

Find/Remove Traps

|

5%

|

5%

|

5%

|

10%

|

Move Silently

|

10%

|

15%

|

10%

|

20%

|

Hide in Shadows

|

5%

|

15%

|

10%

|

20%

|

Detect Noise

|

15%

|

20%

|

15%

|

20%

|

Climb Walls

|

60%

|

60%

|

60%

|

45%

|

Read Languages

|

0%

|

0%

|

0%

|

−5%

|
[/table]

Five of the abilities are then modified by dexterity:

{table=head]

Dexterity

|

Pick Pockets

|

Open Locks

|

Find/Remove Traps

| Move Silently| Hide in Shadows

9

|

−15%

|

−10%

|

−10%

|

−20%

|

−10%

|

10

|

−10%

|

−5%

|

−10%

|

−15%

|

−5%

|

11

|

−5%

|

+0%

|

−5%

|

−10%

|

+0%

|

12

|

+0%

|

+0%

|

+0%

|

−5%

|

+0%

|

13-15

+0%

|

+0%

|

+0%

|

−0%

|

+0%

|

16

|

+0%

|

+5%

|

+0%

|

+0%

|

+0%

|

17

|

+5%

|

+10%

|

+0%

|

+5%

|

+5%

|

18

|

+10%

|

+15%

|

+5%

|

+10%

|

+10%

|

19

|

+15%

|

+20%

|

+10%

|

+15%

|

+15%

|
[/table]

So, if you choose elf or halfling you will get a +1 bonus to dexterity, potentially taking the score to 19, which means:

{table=head]

Ability

|

Elf

| Halfling

Pick Pockets

|

35%

|

35%

|

Open Locks

|

25%

|

35%

|

Find/Remove Traps

|

15%

|

20%

|

Move Silently

|

30%

|

35%

|

Hide in Shadows

|

30%

|

35%

|

Detect Noise

|

20%

|

20%

|

Climb Walls

|

60%

|

45%

|

Read Languages

|

0%

|

−5%

|
[/table]

Then you have 60 points to spread around, but a maximum of only 30 can be added to any one ability. At every level thereafter you will receive 30 points, with a maximum of 15 to added to any one ability in a single instance. You can possibly afford to ignore move silently and hide in shadows, as all they really do is improve your chance of surprise and as an elf or a halfling in non-metal armour your chances are already improved from the base 30% to 70%.

Non-Weapon Proficiencies

I do not really use these, but the above poster's have given good advice. You need a high intelligence to acquire as many bonus proficiency slots as possible (for a total of 10 at intelligence 18), and then take a kit that grants similar useful bonus proficiencies, such as Spy or Investigator (remember, required proficiencies are bonus proficiencies). However, proficiencies rely on a character's attributes for success, so be sure to choose only those that use your higher attributes.

Chances are that you will not get the sort of attributes that maximise a character as outlined above, but that should not be too big a deal in AD&D, as the mechanical advantages are usually secondary to actual role-play as the determinative factors. As some folks have cheekily put it, "if you are rolling the dice then you have done something wrong".

[hamlet]

A high INT thief in AD&D can be that edition's equivalent of a skill monkey. It's already been mentioned above that some of the none weapon proficiencies give bonuses to thief skills (mountaineering stands out) but you might want to be cautious about using your slots that way. I find that selecting none weapon proficiencies to provide a broader range of non-combat type skills to be very rewarding. For example, some of the professional skills have applications other than work a day jobs. There are a few social skills in there like local history (works like gather information in 3.x does) and shadowing that work very well in urban situations. There's one or two floating around for administrative type skills that can be remarkably useful to the creative. Believe it or not, carpentry and stone worker are also valuable.

My advice is to start with a concept of what you want the thief to do, then build out from there, especialy with regards to the thief skills. As mentioned above, choose one or two to focus on and improve them almost to the exclusion of others until you're happy with their level. Then start focusing on others.

In fact, there's some very good advice on how to do this all in the Complete Thieve's Handbook from TSR. One of the few 2e splat books that I think is totally worth the cover price.

[DDRNick]

Thanks a lot for the advice guys.

[LibraryOgre]

Since you're talking "rogue" you probably mean "thief", but I'll also toss out that Bards work excellently for some of this. With a thief, you can't start putting points into Read Languages until 4th level. A bard can start at 1st level; getting that up to 100% (or more) means you can read pretty much any language you come across. Also, bards have a lot more proficiencies... free reading/writing, singing, musical instrument (and two of those per slot) and local history. They also have a far wider pool of proficiencies to choose from at-cost, being able to take from General, Wizard, Rogue and Warrior... in the PH, the only one they don't have access to is Healing, IIRC.

You do lose out on other thief skills, of course... you don't have the staples of Open Lock, F/RT, or the stealth skills. But if you want a 2e skill monkey, you're looking at a bard (and you might take the Locksmith proficiency and be able to pick locks, anyway).