[3.5] Precocious Apprentice Question

[dextercorvia]

Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect.

Is the bold word above referring to class level, or caster level?

For example:
Suppose a first level Human Wizard chooses the Precocious Apprentice (Melf's Acid Arrow) feat, Acidic Splatter feat, and the Spellgifted(Conjuration) trait.

This Wizard has a caster level of 3 when casting Conjurations of the [Acid] type. Would he still need to make the caster level check to cast the Acid Arrow spell, if he wanted to?

[tyckspoon]

Spell levels are tied to character level in all but a very few situations (Ardent is the only major one I know of.) Generally, when it just says 'level' in relation to something, it is talking about relevant class level, and Caster Level or Character Level will be specifically noted when meant.

[DragoonWraith]

RAW, probably have to say character level. Though it should have specified (Leadership says "Character level 6th" for example).

RAMS, you need to be able to cast 2nd level spells naturally to waive the check.

[Douglas]

Technically, caster level has nothing to do with what spell levels you are capable of casting. Class level is the only meaning that makes any sense there.

[Greenish]

Would he still need to make the caster level check to cast the Acid Arrow spell, if he wanted to?

Yes. Caster level doesn't affect the highest level spells you can cast, your daily spells or your spells known.

That would be spellcaster level.

[dextercorvia]

Technically, caster level has nothing to do with what spell levels you are capable of casting.

The next sentence implies otherwise.

Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances.

Edit:

Yes. Caster level doesn't affect the highest level spells you can cast, your daily spells or your spells known.

That would be spellcaster level.

Normally I would agree with you, but since PA is already letting you break the spellcaster level rule, it seems we need to reference it to determine when the spell is able to be cast. And, PA refers to caster level with ability to cast the spell 'normally'.

[Greenish]

Normally I would agree with you, but since PA is already letting you break the spellcaster level rule

Yes, it gives you an exception where you don't need the caster level you'd normally need to cast the spell.

If we reference to PA for when a spell can be cast, you'll never have to make a CL check because the moment you get PA you become able to cast it.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Caster level is an end point with nothing to do with knowing spells, think is there a minimum CL to cast normally. It would be nice if caster level effected your known spells, it would make Practiced Spellcaster an exceptionally great feat.

I think the only place CL has anything to do with being able to cast spells is with scrolls for what checks you need to make.

[dextercorvia]

I get where you guys are coming with this. PA is probably just letting us know that yes we use the actual caster level, and don't make one up that seems appropriate.

I guess my question breaks down to these two:

Is there a minimum caster level to cast a spell? Could my spellgifted example above even cast the True Strike he prepared, with a CL of 0 for divinations?

Is there a minimum class level to cast spells of a certain level? Wouldn't that default to whichever class level you become able to cast such spells?

[Coidzor]

I get where you guys are coming with this. PA is probably just letting us know that yes we use the actual caster level, and don't make one up that seems appropriate.

[2]Is there a minimum class level to cast spells of a certain level? Wouldn't that default to whichever class level you become able to cast such spells?

Well, yeah, you're not supposed to just make up numbers.

1. I'm not really sure about, my impulse reaction is a negative.

2. Yes, at X level <spellcasting class> grants spells of Y level. Precocious Apprentice references "normally," thus referring to the mechanics of the spellcasting class being used as a base.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Doing these backwards

Is there a minimum class level to cast spells of a certain level? Wouldn't that default to whichever class level you become able to cast such spells?

Umm yes....

Its given by the spellcasting class you are progressing in. Wizards for example. If you don't have Wiz 3 you can't cast 2nd level Wizard spells. Your feat is a specific exception under limited circumstances.

Other feats might grant a spell like ability or some such where you might have a normally 2nd level spell, but most of those define the CL (for those specific case mind) as your level anyways.

As spell lists vary there is no 'general' minimum, but spellcasting is separate per base class so it doesn't matter. If you cast Plane Shift as a Cleric it doesn't let you cast it as Wizard, you have to learn the spell as a Wizard. Each potential instance of knowing a spell would have a minimum per you class advancement.

Is there a minimum caster level to cast a spell? Could my spellgifted example above even cast the True Strike he prepared, with a CL of 0 for divinations?

How would you even have a CL of 0?

CL is not relevant for being able to cast a spell. If class levels give you spell casting you will have a CL for spells cast from that class, in the case of multi-classing this can be different for each class. However its should be considered a derived value, it has nothing to do with actually knowing and preparing a spell.

For example when you take a feat that raises your CL you do not gain new spells, that is a feature of your class levels not your caster level. Your CL only determines how powerful a spell is not whether you can know it. Something that would allow you to cast a spell without class levels in a spellcaster should define what the CL will be with that specific effect if there's anything in the spell that needs CL.

For Precocious Apprentice its referencing your class levels as whether you need to make a check or not. In this case without (looking it up mind) your CL would probably be at least 1 for the spellcasting class you are taking the feat with. Unless the feat is written exceptionally badly. For a Wizard for example you would still need to make the check until level 3 in Wizard even if that was ECL 20. While your CL is irrelevant no matter how you boosted it since you wouldn't be able to cast the required spell level in your class.

The only place I've know of where your CL would be less then your class level in the spellcasting class is if you are deliberately nerfing it which its says you need the minimum needed to cast it. This would refer to your class level, so a Wizard could only make say a 2nd level buff spell last a minimum of three rounds if the spells duration (and it was not otherwise dismissible) was based in rounds. For say a spell-like ability without a minimum that minimum would probably be 1. This is only for nerfing your own spells though, if you don't want say your Magic Armor to last 12 hours you could have it only last one.

I hesitate to say there's a minimum since your CL does not determine actually being able to cast a spell in the first place. You are over thinking this whole thing.

[dextercorvia]

Doing these backwards



Umm yes....

Its given by the spellcasting class you are progressing in. Wizards for example. If you don't have Wiz 3 you can't cast 2nd level Wizard spells. Your feat is a specific exception under limited circumstances.

Other feats might grant a spell like ability or some such where you might have a normally 2nd level spell, but most of those define the CL (for those specific case mind) as your level anyways.

A Wizard 6 with spontaneous divination, Versatile Spellcaster, and Heighten spell can in fact cast 4th level spells. What does this mean for minimum class level?

As spell lists vary there is no 'general' minimum, but spellcasting is separate per base class so it doesn't matter. If you cast Plane Shift as a Cleric it doesn't let you cast it as Wizard, you have to learn the spell as a Wizard. Each potential instance of knowing a spell would have a minimum per you class advancement.

No argument here.

How would you even have a CL of 0?

As I said, Spellgifted.

For example when you take a feat that raises your CL you do not gain new spells, that is a feature of your class levels not your caster level.

Gaining yes, I was in no doubt.

The only place I've know of where your CL would be less then your class level in the spellcasting class is if you are deliberately nerfing it which its says you need the minimum needed to cast it. This would refer to your class level, so a Wizard could only make say a 2nd level buff spell last a minimum of three rounds if the spells duration (and it was not otherwise dismissible) was based in rounds. For say a spell-like ability without a minimum that minimum would probably be 1. This is only for nerfing your own spells though, if you don't want say your Magic Armor to last 12 hours you could have it only last one.

You mean this?

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

What if you don't choose the caster level to be lower than the usual class level to cast the spell, but it is? The spellgifted trait is an example. Wild Mage is another. The Wizard (or Beguiler if you prefer) with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten spell. What about the Illumian who stacks Earth Spell, Sanctum Spell, and Improved Krau Sigil on a 3rd level spell, and takes Extra Slot at 6th to get a 5th level spell slot? Or uses the Aeshkrau? (I mean the one that gives you free DMM 1/day) and gets a 9th.

Is the minimum class level to cast a spell only given on the progression table for the class, or is that merely an upper bound of the minimum? PA references normal, and that I buy, but can you break the normal limits on minimum?