Druids: What is it that makes them so powerful?

[DoodlesD]

Druids are typically referred to as the game breakers on this forum, yet i've never played one or been in a party with anybody who has played one. I was wondering what exactly are the game mechanics that make Druids so strong, and how do you manage them as a DM?

[ryzouken]

Everything. Average BAB, d8HD, good skill list, heals, nukes, stat buffs and debuffs, aoe battlefield control, polymorph effects built into the class, a combat pet that's somewhat capable (and later can share a Shapechange to reallly rofl-stomp someone)...

Splash a level of Master of Radiance to get Turn Undead and use Divine Metamagic persist and suddenly you've got a wolf with a persisted Bite of the Weretiger... just... nuts stuff.

GM's counter? Increase the power/number of monsters to compensate. At late levels, use dispellers.

[DoodlesD]

So it's their abilitiy to do everything well that makes them so powerful? or do they just specialize in anything well?

[PId6]

It's the fact that they have three class features that are worth entire classes on their own:

• Spellcasting: Full caster, some great battlefield control spells nearly as good as wizard's, spontaneous summoning (which is fantastic).
• Animal Companion: As good or better than an extra Fighter at early levels, and still very strong late with optimized choices and buffs. Smells better than the Fighter too.
• Wild Shape: Turns him into a martial character++, who gets to dump Str and Dex as well.

Basically: "I am a Druid, I have special abilities that are more powerful than your entire class!"

[Private-Prinny]

Imagine if a Fighter and a Wizard teamed up. Now imagine that the Wizard is as good as, if not better than, the Fighter in melee without using any buffing spells. Now make them both controlled by the same person.

That's a Druid. Also, see my quotebox.

[Greenish]

I was wondering what exactly are the game mechanics that make Druids so strong

• Animal companion. A good one is only slightly inferior to a fighter.
• Wild shape. This alone is stronger than most any melee classes.
• Casting. From Entangle to Shapechange, druids have spells that can end or trivialize an encounter with one casting. Oh, and selected a poor spell? No problems, use it to spontaneously summon allies.

[Douglas]

A) Animal Companion. This by itself is almost the equivalent of having a Fighter as a free cohort, and depending on your choices and level it can actually be more powerful than a Fighter of your level would be.
B) Wild Shape. With this, a Druid can easily turn into a melee powerhouse to rival or beat a Fighter - and he doesn't have to actually spend any high ability scores on physical stuff to do it, and this is all just one class feature out of several rather than the entire focus of the class.
C) Full casting. The Druid list may not be quite as good as the Wizard one, but it's still plenty powerful.
D) Druids get all of the above at the same time, for free, by default (ok, combining Wild Shape and casting requires a single feat. That's a really prohibitively high cost, let me tell you. Not).

[Jorda75]

The main word here is versatility, the druid can take almost any role in a party you need to fill and do it as well (if not better) than a class designed for that role. Need a meat shield/tank? Your druid turns into a bear and charges right in. Need a healer? Just prepare one or two healing spells or grab a wand of CLW. Even something like stealth is a joke to a powerful druid who can turn into a small bird or cat and sneak around in plain sight.

The druid can further focus any one aspect of their class with PRCs and feats creating either a brutal front line mauler or a powerful backline caster (who has a built in companion to fight melee for him). The ability to spontaneous exchange spells for Summon Nature's Ally is also a tool that allows for as many possibilities as the druid has imagination.

I personally do not consider the druid to be as OP as many others do, he can fill many roles but rarely does he outshine another class at any specific set of abilities. You can min/max the druid to be good at just about anything you want, but they always have a min/max'd match in the classes built for that role as well.

[PId6]

Need a healer? Just prepare one or two healing spells or grab a wand of CLW.

Or, better yet, just spontaneously convert one of your spells to Summon Nature's Ally IV. A summoned Unicorn provides 3x Cure Light Wounds and 1x Cure Moderate Wounds all at CL 5, providing a grand total of 5d8+20 for a 4th level slot, far better than the equivalent Cure spell. It also provides Neutralize Poison free of charge as an added benefit.

[Jorda75]

Or, better yet, just spontaneously convert one of your spells to Summon Nature's Ally IV. A summoned Unicorn provides 3x Cure Light Wounds and 1x Cure Moderate Wounds all at CL 5, providing a grand total of 5d8+20 for a 4th level slot, far better than the equivalent Cure spell. It also provides Neutralize Poison free of charge as an added benefit.

Ha ha, that's what I'm talking about with the SNA being as useful as you have imagination for. I've personally summoned whales and dire sharks to plug holes or doorways, fighting your way through a few tons of angry, biting blubber is not fun.

[Greenish]

Or, better yet, just spontaneously convert one of your spells to Summon Nature's Ally IV. A summoned Unicorn provides 3x Cure Light Wounds and 1x Cure Moderate Wounds all at CL 5, providing a grand total of 5d8+20 for a 4th level slot, far better than the equivalent Cure spell. It also provides Neutralize Poison free of charge as an added benefit.

And SNA V gets you 1d3 of them.

Ha ha, that's what I'm talking about with the SNA being as useful as you have imagination for. I've personally summoned whales and dire sharks to plug holes or doorways, fighting your way through a few tons of angry, biting blubber is not fun.

I've heard that players using summoned whales as roadblocks is what led wizards into adding a clause into SNA forbidding summoning aquatic animals when not in aquatic environment.

[Jorda75]

And SNA V gets you 1d3 of them.
I've heard that players using summoned whales as roadblocks is what led wizards into adding a clause into SNA forbidding summoning aquatic animals when not in aquatic environment.

Pfft, that rule doesn't make sense to me at all. Why can't I summon a whale into open air? They're air breathing mammals, just because they live in the sea I can only summon them when I'm in the water? Sure it might be cruel as a druid to do that but as a heartless wizard who says I can't? Imma summon me a whale and drop it on you if I want to darn it!

[PId6]

I've heard that players using summoned whales as roadblocks is what led wizards into adding a clause into SNA forbidding summoning aquatic animals when not in aquatic environment.

Summoning fat land-or-water-bound creatures above an enemy's head and watching it fall likely had something to do with that decision as well.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Pfft, that rule doesn't make sense to me at all. Why can't I summon a whale into open air? They're air breathing mammals, just because they live in the sea I can only summon them when I'm in the water? Sure it might be cruel as a druid to do that but as a heartless wizard who says I can't? Imma summon me a whale and drop it on you if I want to darn it!

Because the rules for summoning creatures say

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

And the rules in the summoning spells state that aquatic creatures can only be summoned in aquatic or watery environments. Such as say with an Octopus.

Why don't you just ask why can't a autokill whatever I want with a single spell no save.

[Greenish]

I believe the rules for summoning creatures state you can't do that.

The post you replied to was speculation on the reasons behind said rules, so we can assume he is aware of this.

[PId6]

I believe the rules for summoning creatures state you can't do that.

That's the point; I was speculating that the ability to do so was one of the reasons why WotC added the summoning limitations to 3.5 summoning spells.

[Frosty]

Summoning fat land-or-water-bound creatures above an enemy's head and watching it fall likely had something to do with that decision as well.

Summon Bigger Fish?

Spoiler

Show

[PId6]

Summon Bigger Fish?

But it'd stink up the palace for a week!

[Jorda75]

And the rules in the summoning spells state that aquatic creatures can only be summoned in aquatic or watery environments. Such as say with an Octopus.

Why don't you just ask why can't a autokill whatever I want with a single spell no save.

I know what the rules SAY, I just don't agree with them. Summoning a whale on flat ground in a space wide enough to hold it (like a large doorway or gateway) seems perfectly okay to me. The rule that you can only summon aquatic creatures in such environments is not a logic rule it's a balance rule, that's my point. And the little auto kill quip just makes you sound really stupid, there's a pretty big difference between me arguing that I can summon a whale on land and that I can kill with a thought, try and make your arguments a little less Grade school level next time.

[sol-decentguy]

I'm not sure as to the reason why but I remember a friend of mine who played a druid, specifically to the vow of poverty feat that really boosted him. I am not sure exactly how though, could anyone clarify why that is?

[Frosty]

Druids benefit more from VoP than any other class because while in wildshape they don't actually benefit from the vast majority of their magic items anyways (like that +6 Amulet of Wisdom for example).

They're powerful enough without items, and with them (or the benefits of VoP), they're over the top.

[PId6]

I'm not sure as to the reason why but I remember a friend of mine who played a druid, specifically to the vow of poverty feat that really boosted him. I am not sure exactly how though, could anyone clarify why that is?

It's because your items are supposed to meld into your form when you Wild Shape. VoP's bonuses would still stay, however, so there's a kind of synergy involved.

Still, even druids are better off without VoP. You can just drop your items before Wild Shaping and then put them on again afterward, or buy Wilding Clasps and Wild Armor instead. Still, if Wilding Clasps aren't available and the drop items trick isn't allowed, VoP might be worth it for a druid.

[Greenish]

I'm not sure as to the reason why but I remember a friend of mine who played a druid, specifically to the vow of poverty feat that really boosted him. I am not sure exactly how though, could anyone clarify why that is?

Vow of Poverty means you don't get any magical gear, but it gives you a handful of boosts meant to compensate for this fact. For most classes, they don't, but druids aren't very dependent on items on account of having their spells and wildshape (in which most items become non-functional anyway).

[Douglas]

I'm not sure as to the reason why but I remember a friend of mine who played a druid, specifically to the vow of poverty feat that really boosted him. I am not sure exactly how though, could anyone clarify why that is?

The normal supposed drawback of Wild Shape is that you lose all your gear while in your Wild Shape forms. Vow of Poverty's benefits are intended to replace gear, and they stick around regardless of your form.

Not that the Wild Shape = no gear thing ever really worked, with the ability to just take your stuff off, Wild Shape, put it back on, and forget about it for the rest of the day. And then WotC printed the Wilding Clasp...

[Jorda75]

The normal supposed drawback of Wild Shape is that you lose all your gear while in your Wild Shape forms. Vow of Poverty's benefits are intended to replace gear, and they stick around regardless of your form.

Not that the Wild Shape = no gear thing ever really worked, with the ability to just take your stuff off, Wild Shape, put it back on, and forget about it for the rest of the day. And then WotC printed the Wilding Clasp...

And druids remained too powerful for anyone to control. I think an epic level druid bent of destroying modern society and returning the world to a more "natural state" would make a crazy powerful villain. Imagine him summoning a huge army of Earth Elementals, then turning into one and suddenly popping up in the middle of a city, bashing down walls and buildings, then summoning fire elementals to burn it all to the ground. That would be awesome :D

[Optimystik]

In addition, their divine foci (unlike a cleric's) can work with VoP without finagling.

[Devils_Advocate]

I'm not seeing mention of the Natural Spell feat, which allows druids to use Wild Shape and their spellcasting at the same time. And utterly dump their Str and Dex scores and not have to deal with drawbacks from that.

[Edit]OK, so it was mentioned, but not by name. I just used Ctrl+F instead of reading the whole thread. Sue me. [/Edit]

Not that they aren't overpowered without it, but still. Most classes have to go to splatbooks for feats as cheesy as the one that the Druid gets right in the PHB. That seems worth mentioning.

(Well, Leadership is in the DMG, but that's far from class-specific.)

[sol-decentguy]

Thank you all for the explanations. I truly see why it works

[Felyndiira]

In case if you want further demonstrations, though, here's the druid handbook:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=1354.0

Spontaneous allies are cheap, wild shape with natural spell is cheap, SAD, rather powerful spellcasting, and you can add DMM using initiate of nature if you so desire for even more cheapness.

[DoodlesD]

Well how do you keep druid's from being game breakers? also, since they're great at everything, how do you keep them from overshadowing all of the less powerful classes?